BusTalk

[Q65A]

GM Old Looks in New York (Paired Window 45’s)
In 1948-1949, GM Old Look transit buses underwent several significant design changes. Externally, passenger windows of 1948-1949 GM Old Looks were modified as described by Larry Plachno in the May 1982 issue of National Bus Trader magazine: “Formerly, passenger windows were square and separated by narrow window posts. The new window design grouped windows in sets of two (pairs) with the outer four corners rounded.” This feature differentiated the post-1948 35-foot GM Old Looks (TDH 4509, 4510, and 4512) from their earlier predecessors; all GM Old Look buses built from late 1948 onward eventually became known to bus historians as “Paired Window” Old Looks. (To see this feature, check out “Historical Buses of NYC: Old Looks in NYC (GM-TD-4506) and the photo of Schenck Transportation #218 posted by Mr. Linsky). Transmission designs also were upgraded at the same time. As Plachno wrote in this same article, “March of 1949 marked the introduction of GM’s improved ‘V-drive’ automatic transmission which was much lighter than earlier transmissions.” The July-August 1992 issue of Motor Coach Age provided additional details on these changes: “During 1948 the designs and specifications were prepared for a new transit bus body design featuring paired windows. Model numbers 3208, 3611, 4009, and 4508 were assigned to the new buses, but none were produced. At that time the Allison Division was completing development work on a new hydraulic bus transmission that incorporated the angle drive unit. Modifications necessary when the VH transmission was made standard adjusted the wheelbase and rear overhang (except on the 36-passenger bus) and eliminated the structural changes formerly required to take a mechanical transmission. The standard transit models introduced in early 1949 were thus designated 3209, 3612, 4010, and 4509.” The TDH-4509 was 96” wide, 35 feet long, weighed 16,720 lbs. empty, and had a 238.75” wheelbase. Powered by the Detroit Diesel 6-71 engine, it had steel spring suspension. Like the TDH/M 4507 that preceded it, the TDH-4509 was a popular model: 2,494 units were produced from 1949 to 1953. New York City bus operators purchased TDH-4509’s in respectable numbers. Not surprisingly, 35-foot GM Old Look devotee NYCO (and its subsidiary Eighth Avenue Coach Corp.) owned a whopping fleet of 360 units (#’s 2737-3096, built from March 1949 to August 1951). Parent FACCO, perhaps already setting its sights on larger buses, bought only 75 units (#’s 2363-2437, built in May-June 1950). The NYC Board of Transportation did not purchase TDH-4509’s, but Queens PBL’s did. Green Bus Lines, who sampled many of GM’s Old Looks in the 1945-1959 era, took delivery of 35 units (#’s 311-345 built in November 1950). Triboro Coach Corp. ordered 20 4509’s (#’s 1151-1165 built in January 1951, and #’s 1171-1175 built in February 1952). Steinway Omnibus Corp. ordered 55 units (#’s 301-305 in January 1949 and #’s 306-355 in September-October 1951). Finally breaking with its long-standing tradition of buying mainly ACF-Brills, Queens-Nassau Transit Lines bought its first fleet of GM diesels, taking delivery of 30 TDH-4509’s (#’s 701-730 built in October 1951). Diehard Mack fans Jamaica Buses Inc. and Avenue B & East Broadway Transit Co. both ignored the 4509, as did Surface Transportation System (who was more focused on contemporary Macks at the time). As with FACCO, by 1948-1949 the NYC Board of Transportation clearly was interested in exploring the potential benefits of deploying larger transit buses on heavily patronized routes. While FACCO wanted to use larger single-deck buses to replace its slow, aging fleet of double-deckers on its busy Manhattan routes, BOT was interested in motorizing many of Brooklyn’s ex-BMT streetcar lines. From December 1948 to January 1949, BOT took delivery of 500 TDH-4510’s (#’s 4000-4499). This model basically was a stock TDH-4509, except that it was 102” wide and weighed 17,120 lbs. empty. Only one other TDH-4510 was built (Pacific Electric 2700, built in May 1950). Although 102” wide transit coaches would become popular nationwide (especially after the introduction of GM’s highly successful models TDH-5103 and TDH-5105), NYC bus operators did not buy any new 102” wide Old Looks, waiting instead for the New Look TDH-5301 in 1959. The TDH-4512 was GM’s second most-popular Old Look, with 3,263 units built from 1953 to 1959. It basically was a TDH-4509 equipped with an air-ride suspension. New York City bus operators definitely bucked the nationwide trend with the 4512: only Green Bus Lines purchased 15 units (#’s 101-115 built in June 1954). Why the 4512 never made it in The Big Apple is not certain, but it is not unreasonable to speculate that by the early 1950’s NYC bus operators were sold on the operational efficiencies of 40-foot transit coaches. This is underscored by the fact that, years later, very few 35-foot New Looks operated in NYC. The “Paired Window 45’s” generally survived into the mid-1960’s, mostly on certain MaBSTOA routes (where former Brooklyn TDH-4510’s finally were replaced by TDH-5303’s in 1965).

[Mr. Linsky]

Bob,

Great piece - another gem to add to our research archive.

This is only a guess, but it might be that some operators shied away from the 4512's because of the newly introduced Air Suspension - and they might not have been wrong!

The original 'Neoprene' bags were a problem - especially the rear set which may have had too much weight put upon them,

Many a Green Line 100 came limping back to the garage with one side of the rear end hanging on the ground.

GM did come up with a solution and made good on the faulty equipment but not apparently to the satisafaction of most New York operators.

I think that the concern was the bad roads that would exacerbate the condition.

I have taken the liberty of highlighting your article with pictures of a squared window TD 4506, and both a paired window 4509 and 4512 in that order below.

Thanks for sharing.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

Typical GM TD 4506 Squared Window;

Typical GM TDH 4509 Paired Window;

Typical GM TDH 4512 Paired Window;

[Cyberider]

Mr. Linsky,

Can you tell us about the passenger windows on the 4512? They have a strange appearance and look almost like storm windows on a house. They don't look like the usual vertical lift-windows and they don't look like horizontally-sliding windows either because it looks like both windows are in the same plane.

Thanks,
Dave

[Mr. Linsky]

Dave,

When I first saw the above photo (a 1956 TDH 4512 operated by the Greater Winnipeg Transit Commission - Winnipeg, Manitoba) I questioned the strange window configuration and the clips that appear at the edges of each sash.

I was informed that what you see are storm windows placed in front of the standard sashes for winter operation (notice that the trees in the background have lost their seasonal foliage).

# 108 was one of eleven 4512's purchased and so specially equipped.

I have attached a photo of # 105 of the same group found in a junk yard after its second life with another operator.

Notice that the storm sashes have been removed to reveal the regular windows.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Cyberider]

Thanks for the info, Mr. Linsky. I didn't know storm windows were ever applied to buses. Interesting photos and a sad, yet typical, end for a beautiful bus.

[Mr. Linsky]

Dave,

Storm windows on buses are about as affective as having screen doors on submarines when you consider that in transit operations the doors are opened constantly - but I suppose every little bit helps in the very cold northern climates!

I am uncertain as to whether these applications were a GM option or an aftermarket item.

Interestingly, there were 'OldLook' operators that opted for safety screens instead of the split sashes as seen below on the Charleston models being delivered.

These were obviously a GM option.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Cyberider]

Good analogy, Mr. Linsky!

Yes, the screens look like they are right out of the Yellow Coach factory. If I remember my photos properly, that was the very first order of Old Looks out the door.

[Mr. Linsky]

Dave,

You're absolutely right - the Charleston # 117 was actually the very first 'Old Look' off the line in 1940.

Notice the Michigan 'Drive Away' Contractors plate, and the fact that # 117 is suffering from a flat right outer rear tire!

The special GM 'ICC' permit plate in the lower portion of the right windshield was required for travel interstate.,

BTW; photo courtesy of the Motor Bus Society.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Cyberider]

That tire always looked flat to me also, Mr. Linsky. However, looking at it closely with my big, bright screen here at work, it looks like the light is hitting the tire and the road in such a way that it looks flat at a distance but when looking at it up close, the tire appears to be properly inflated! Anyway, it sure would be a treat if we could hop on a brand new Old Look and go for a drive.

[Mr. Linsky]

Dave,

Absolutely no disrespect intended but I think you should put your other glasses on!

If that tire isn't flat, I'll eat my hat!

I think I'll take a poll! (only kidding) but it sure looks like it's short of air.

Mr. 'L'

[Cyberider]

Take a look up very close with a magnifying glass if necessary. From a distance, it sure does look flat but it's just the lack of contrast between the road and the tire that makes it look that way. It's the road between the tire and the mud flap that gives the flat appearance from a distance.

Anyway, no big deal and we don't want to be eating our hats. I suppose this has been an issue of debate for the last 68 years!

[ripta42]

That tire's not flat, Mr. L. Hope you have one of these.

[Mr. Linsky]

Michael,

I remember Carmen Miranda very well, and I think the fruit was phony!

Anyway, it looks as though it's two to one against me on the tire bit so I may have to concede - but it still looks flat to me.

Maybe we could get an independent observer to render a final opinion - or maybe we should let it go for another 68 years!

It's interesting!

Mr.'L'