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ralph kramden
Age: 63
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 19
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan...Toledo,Ohio when I get lost
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 Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DE60LF wrote: | Could anyone name me a list of potential customers for the LFS when Nova re-enters the U.S. market?
As I stated earlier, I would actually think ABQ RIDE could show interest in the LFS HEV when the time comes to replace the Neoplans and/or Thomases. Both the New Flyer DE40LFR and Nova LFS HEV use an Allison parallel hybrid system. They have considered the Gillig Advantage Hybrid prior to purchasing the DE40LFRs. Whoever gives ABQ RIDE the best deal will be who ABQ RIDE buys from. They will now have four options (New Flyer, Gillig, NABI, and Nova) that offer the Allison hybrid system. Orion is probably out of the question as the Orion VII NG HEV doesn't use the Allison parallel hybrid drivetrain, it uses a BAE HybriDrive series hybrid drivetrain. |
DE60LF, If NovaBus gets into competition with the other manufactures; and the feds allow them in the competitive bid process they just may get a good hold of the market. Properties like (Cleveland) RTA have a number of these buses running now; even Ohio State University has a couple. Unfortunately, whether you like them or not with the feds the winner is the lowest bid!! Private companies though; will most likely stick with whom they are comfortable with as long as the price is right. Now myself for what it's worth I would be willing to give the Nova's an equal chance and at least look them over. As I said earlier; my biggest problem with them was the seating.
Just curious; Do you think it would be a good thing to have another manufacture to choose from. Kinda like old times........GM/ Flxible/ AM General back in the 70's! |
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RailBus63
Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 1063
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Five major manufacturers is a lot. I also wonder when the current economic downtown will start to limit the funding for new vehicle purchases. |
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Mr. Transit
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I live here in Philly. SEPTA will probably be putting out bids for a fleet of arts, to replace the 155 Neoplan high floors in a few years. SEPTA tested their 40ft. demo model on the Rt. 38 in 1996. Also, they did bid on SEPTA's first low floor bus contract in 1999 that New Flyer won. So there should be some interest by both parties. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 142
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Transit wrote: | | I live here in Philly. SEPTA will probably be putting out bids for a fleet of arts, to replace the 155 Neoplan high floors in a few years. SEPTA tested their 40ft. demo model on the Rt. 38 in 1996. Also, they did bid on SEPTA's first low floor bus contract in 1999 that New Flyer won. So there should be some interest by both parties. |
This could be a good first shot for Nova's re-entry in the U.S. market. New Flyer will probably bid as well, though.
As for NABI, NABI has had a hard time selling diesel artics these days, as indicated by the fact that only CTA operates diesel-powered NABI low floor artics. All other NABI low floor artics that have been produced are all CNG-powered. NABI did produce a demo of a diesel-electric hybrid 60-BRT, but has yet to receive any orders for that particular model.
So, is SEPTA looking at diesel artics or diesel-electric hybrids? Nova does not yet offer a diesel-electric hybrid version of the LFS artic, only the standard 40-foot LFS. However, if Nova is willing to produce a diesel-electric hybrid LFS artic, then SEPTA could indeed chose Nova.
I have wondered and still wonder today - when will Orion and Gillig start producing artics? While I doubt that SEPTA would seriously look at purchasing buses from Gillig (as if Gillig would really consider bidding for a TA of SEPTA's size), if Orion eventually offers an artic, then that could be another option. I would think that NYCT would also show interest in an Orion VII NG artic. |
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Mr. Transit
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| SEPTA will probably be buying hybrids for all future bus purchases. As far as Gillig is concerned, they've been up for sale since the beginning of this year. They should have a new owner in the next several months. I'm sure they'll consider whether or not to offer an art model. Finally, word is that Orion will be coming out with a art model based on their VII design in 2011. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 142
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Transit wrote: | | SEPTA will probably be buying hybrids for all future bus purchases. As far as Gillig is concerned, they've been up for sale since the beginning of this year. They should have a new owner in the next several months. I'm sure they'll consider whether or not to offer an art model. Finally, word is that Orion will be coming out with a art model based on their VII design in 2011. |
Really, Gillig is up for grabs? I haven't heard anything about this. If so, I wonder who would be the buyer?
New Flyer could gain a bit of market share if they buy Gillig, particularly with smaller transit authorities. However, most of their models are fairly redundant. However, New Flyer can gain a trolley replica if they buy out Gillig. The Phantom is still selling moderately, so even if New Flyer buys out Gillig, the Phantom could remain in production well into the future. On the other hand, Gillig would gain a full line of CNG/LNG buses as well as artics. The Gillig Advantage/BRT and New Flyer LFR/BRT series buses may be eventually replaced by a single new low floor model if Gillig is bought out by New Flyer.
Orion is owned by Daimler AG, the world's largest bus manufacturer. I don't think that Daimler AG needs to purchase another manufacturer. Plus, Orion's models are redundant to Gillig's lineup, even moreso than with New Flyer. The Orion V would be redundant to the Gillig Phantom, and the Orion VII would be redundant to the Gillig Advantage/BRT. Only real differences are Gillig's trolley replica bus and Orion's CNG buses.
What about NABI? NABI is an especially strong brand for CNG buses, however, they already bought out Optima and Blue Bird, so I don't think NABI is really willing to buy out Gillig.
And of course, Gillig could also be sold to a European manufacturer, such as Van Hool. |
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Mr. Transit
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| From what I hear, other transportation concerns such as truck manufacturers are interested in Gillig. Also, they're a family owned company, and they'll be particular who they sell it to. |
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RailBus63
Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 1063
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| The federal government might have some antitrust concerns if New Flyer or another major manufacturer bought Gillig. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 142
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| RailBus63 wrote: | | The federal government might have some antitrust concerns if New Flyer or another major manufacturer bought Gillig. |
What about a manufacturer from overseas? If a European manufacturer buys out Gillig, then that will give that manufacturer a foothold in the U.S. market.
I wonder, could MAN AG (current owners of Neoplan Germany) be a likely buyer of Gillig? Remember that Neoplan USA was originally a subsidiary of Neoplan Germany, and was later spun off. If MAN AG buys out Gillig, it would would be Neoplan Germany's re-entry into the U.S. market and thus the revival of Neoplan USA, this time in Gillig form. |
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RailBus63
Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 1063
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| DE60LF wrote: | What about a manufacturer from overseas? If a European manufacturer buys out Gillig, then that will give that manufacturer a foothold in the U.S. market.
I wonder, could MAN AG (current owners of Neoplan Germany) be a likely buyer of Gillig? Remember that Neoplan USA was originally a subsidiary of Neoplan Germany, and was later spun off. If MAN AG buys out Gillig, it would would be Neoplan Germany's re-entry into the U.S. market and thus the revival of Neoplan USA, this time in Gillig form. |
An overseas manufacturer such as Neoplan-MAN wouldn't face the same scrutiny if they are not presently selling buses in the U.S. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 142
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| RailBus63 wrote: | | DE60LF wrote: | What about a manufacturer from overseas? If a European manufacturer buys out Gillig, then that will give that manufacturer a foothold in the U.S. market.
I wonder, could MAN AG (current owners of Neoplan Germany) be a likely buyer of Gillig? Remember that Neoplan USA was originally a subsidiary of Neoplan Germany, and was later spun off. If MAN AG buys out Gillig, it would would be Neoplan Germany's re-entry into the U.S. market and thus the revival of Neoplan USA, this time in Gillig form. |
An overseas manufacturer such as Neoplan-MAN wouldn't face the same scrutiny if they are not presently selling buses in the U.S. |
Well, NABI did buy out both Optima and Blue Bird. However, Optima is primarily a smaller, medium-duty bus manufacturer, and Blue Bird is mostly a school bus manufacturer (although they do produce some transit buses).
I understand that there would be several antitrust hurdles if Gillig were to be bought out by New Flyer, Orion, NABI, or Nova. However, out of the three, I would say that New Flyer is the best fit for Gillig. In addition to New Flyer's artics and CNG/LNG buses, this would give Gillig a foothold in the Canadian market, where Gillig does not presently sell to. |
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THE HAT
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Yonkers, NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: MTA market for artics |
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| As I understand the NYCTA took exception to the D60LF, the TA wuld rather have D60HF and they cancelled the remaining order because NewFlyer was to instead of completing the D60HF was to give the remainder of the order in low floor and the TA said no. On the other hand NewFlyer gave Minn.-St. Paul an order of D60HF afterward. However I could be wrong. As for Nova low floor it looks nice, but the TA demo for the 40ft. was rejected back in the 90's and the TA hasn't revisited that yet and I know of no demos for the Nova artic. MTAB was visited by NABI, I don't know if anything materialized from it, except some MTAB brass got free NABI winter jackets. |
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THE HAT
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Yonkers, NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Neoplan Artic |
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| As for the Neoplan artic, I drove those for the Bee-line and for the operator the bus was a dream, but for the passenger the suspension setting and the use of snow tires year round was a nightmare b/c it rode like it was on spring board and the BL added stantions to all the seats to reduce the spring effect on the seats as they are wall mount only, as explained by the head fo safety and training. The issue was the strength of the retarder, it was a little aggressive off the throtle stage, but smooth on the brake stage as set by BL specs. However the "rev limiter" was removed while I worked there and The DD60 took off like a car. I wish Neoplan still was in the market, I have feeling the TA or MTAB would order from them quckly to expand and replace thier artics. Since my employ at MTAB Yonkers I only drive MCI D4500 and it gets boring like only having vanilla ice cream all the time, MTA hurry and take the BL so I can drive that good BL stuff again. |
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