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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: IT'S OFFICIAL - NovaBus to re-enter U.S. market |
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http://www.pressrepublican.com/homepage/local_story_033054524.html
Apparently, NovaBus is proposing a factory in Plattsburgh, New York. While the LFS sold poorly during Nova's tenure in the U.S., could it have a second chance? Nova has made several improvements to the LFS since they left the U.S. market. They now even offer a diesel-electric hybrid option as well as an artic.
The Nova LFS artic could be serious competition to the New Flyer D/DE60LF. While NABI does produce artics, they are primarily a niche manufacturer, as they are the only manufacturer to produce CNG artics. NABI's track record with artics has been generally poorer than NFI. NABI has yet to receive an order for the 60-BRT Hybrid; all 60-BRT orders thus far have been CNG models. If Nova offers a diesel-electric hybrid option for the LFS artic, they could perhaps end New Flyer's monopoly on the hybrid artic market. |
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Q65A
Age: 66 Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 1768 Location: Central NJ
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Smart move indeed.
Orion (and parent Daimler) certainly must take notice that they are no longer the only bus buider in the Empire State.
With the apparent collapse of Millennium Transit, perhaps Nova sees a good opportunity here in the US.
They are owned by Volvo, a very experienced global bus builder who also has advanced diesel engine technology. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Q65A wrote: | Smart move indeed.
Orion (and parent Daimler) certainly must take notice that they are no longer the only bus buider in the Empire State.
With the apparent collapse of Millennium Transit, perhaps Nova sees a good opportunity here in the US.
They are owned by Volvo, a very experienced global bus builder who also has advanced diesel engine technology. |
In addition to the collapse of MTS, perhaps Neoplan's collapse could also be a driving force for MTS to re-enter the U.S. market. During Nova's previous tenure, there were six major manufacturers (New Flyer, Gillig, Orion, NABI, Neoplan, and Nova) in the U.S. market. With Nova's departure, the U.S. market was reduced to five major manufacturers. Then came Neoplan's collapse, reducing the number to four. NovaBus could fill in the gap left by Neoplan.
I wonder, could ElDorado become a more serious sixth manufacturer? They now produce a 40-foot bus, the Axess. |
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ripta42 Site Admin
Age: 45 Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 1035 Location: Pawtucket, RI / Woburn, MA
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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I don't think the Axess is heavy-duty enough to compete in major transit markets, but the EZ-Rider II is a suitable alternative to Gillig, New Flyer, and NABI 30' and 35' buses. |
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ralph kramden
Age: 63 Joined: 09 May 2007 Posts: 19 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan...Toledo,Ohio when I get lost
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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I agree with ripta42; Novabus I am sure did some tweaking with the actual coach. Back in 2000 I test drove a Nova low floor as a demonstrator when we were looking at changing over to Low Floors, the bus itself drove pretty good; but the seating arrangements were pretty bad. If you were taller than about 3' tall you would not fit into the seat directly behind the driver's platform. The other problem was that in the rear, as the seats rose the floor did not; there was a "litigious" gap between the floor and the rear seat that would allow a slip and fall.
Has anyone actually seen or driven a Nova artic? |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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ripta42 wrote: | I don't think the Axess is heavy-duty enough to compete in major transit markets, but the EZ-Rider II is a suitable alternative to Gillig, New Flyer, and NABI 30' and 35' buses. |
I would say that the EZ-Rider II is really more of a competitor to the Optima Opus and Blue Bird Ultra LF (and to a lesser extent, the Thomas SLF200).
Perhpas ElDorado should follow Gillig's business model and compete for smaller transit authorities.
As for NovaBus, if they are capable of serving major Canadian transit authorities, they could have a shot with those in the United States. I wonder who will get Nova's first major U.S. order after re-entry. Maybe ABQ RIDE could eventually show interest in the Nova LFS Hybrid when the time comes to replace the Neoplans and/or Thomases. I wouldn't necessarily say that ABQ RIDE is 100% loyal to New Flyer, as they did actually consider Gilligs prior to ordering the DE40LFR buses. |
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kevlaf983
Age: 41 Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 99 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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ralph kramden wrote: | I agree with ripta42; Novabus I am sure did some tweaking with the actual coach. Back in 2000 I test drove a Nova low floor as a demonstrator when we were looking at changing over to Low Floors, the bus itself drove pretty good; but the seating arrangements were pretty bad. If you were taller than about 3' tall you would not fit into the seat directly behind the driver's platform. The other problem was that in the rear, as the seats rose the floor did not; there was a "litigious" gap between the floor and the rear seat that would allow a slip and fall.
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The more recent LFS' are much better than the early ones. They have managed to get quite a few contracts in Ontario and BC. They seem to be gaining in popularity.
The LFS Artic looks interesting. I hope Nova Bus demoes (sp?) it around.
The Ez-Rider II seems to be popular with the small agencies in Ontario, even Mississauga Transit has ordered them. |
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ralph kramden
Age: 63 Joined: 09 May 2007 Posts: 19 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan...Toledo,Ohio when I get lost
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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If you go to novabus.com you can see a picture and get the specs for the Articulated NovaBus. Seems that we may want to watch this one!! |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder, could Nova overtake NABI as the #2 manufacturer of articulated buses in the U.S.?
I have heard that the NABI 60-LFW/60-BRT is a very unreliable bus. They have been notorious for suspension problems. Depending on how good the Nova LFS artic is, it could become a more serious competitor to the New Flyer D/DE60LF, especially if offered in a diesel-electric hybrid version. The majority of NABI low floor artics that have been produced are CNG powered. I think CTA is the only operator of diesel-powered NABI low floor artics. Because NABI is the only maker of CNG powered artics, they are basically the only choice for TAs dependent on CNG.
New Flyer has stated that the market for CNG artics is too limited, and any development costs on such a model would be better spent on improving the DE60LF. Because of this, I don't expect Nova to offer a CNG artic. New Flyer currently remains the domininat maker of artics, and if the Nova LFS artic works out, it could become a true second option for TAs, rather than a niche option like NABI. |
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The Port of Authority
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 118 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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DE60LF wrote: | I have heard that the NABI 60-LFW/60-BRT is a very unreliable bus. They have been notorious for suspension problems. Depending on how good the Nova LFS artic is, it could become a more serious competitor to the New Flyer D/DE60LF, especially if offered in a diesel-electric hybrid version. The majority of NABI low floor artics that have been produced are CNG powered. I think CTA is the only operator of diesel-powered NABI low floor artics. Because NABI is the only maker of CNG powered artics, they are basically the only choice for TAs dependent on CNG. |
I don't think that the problems with the 60-BRT itself are really that serious. Los Angeles has ordered hundreds of them and they don't intend to stop soon, and I can't foresee the entire fleet going out of service any time soon.
The 60-LFW has its problems, though.
PS: I doubt that Nova's going to offer a CNG powered LFS artic -- they haven't constructed a 40-foot LFS running on CNG, after all... |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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The Port of Authority wrote: | DE60LF wrote: | I have heard that the NABI 60-LFW/60-BRT is a very unreliable bus. They have been notorious for suspension problems. Depending on how good the Nova LFS artic is, it could become a more serious competitor to the New Flyer D/DE60LF, especially if offered in a diesel-electric hybrid version. The majority of NABI low floor artics that have been produced are CNG powered. I think CTA is the only operator of diesel-powered NABI low floor artics. Because NABI is the only maker of CNG powered artics, they are basically the only choice for TAs dependent on CNG. |
I don't think that the problems with the 60-BRT itself are really that serious. Los Angeles has ordered hundreds of them and they don't intend to stop soon, and I can't foresee the entire fleet going out of service any time soon.
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Actually, see this thread here:
http://hopetunnel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=671
Same problem as CTA. The reason why Los Angeles is ordering them is that it is the ONLY CNG articulated bus offered in North America. New Flyer has stated that a C60LF would be a waste of money, as the market for CNG artics is too small. That money is better spent on improving the DE60LF.
If NABI doesn't do anything to fix the suspension problems, LACMTA will have to look overseas and bypass the Buy America laws like AC Transit. I know Van Hool produces a CNG artic. |
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RailBus63 Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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I was also wondering, could Nova also start making shortened versions of the LFS as well (i.e. a 30-footer or 35-footer)? Some smaller transit authorities may not need a 40-foot bus, and if Nova offered a 35-foot LFS, then Nova could grab more market share. |
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RailBus63 Moderator
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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The 40-foot LFS has a very short wheelbase - only 244 in. compared to 286 in. for an Orion VII and 293 in. for a D40LF. This results in a long front overhang for the LFS. I'm not an engineer, but I'm guessing that cutting five feet from the LFS wheelbase might result in some issues in terms of stability, ride quality, etc. Nova may not see enough of a market for 30 or 35-foot buses to spend the money to produce a shorter version. |
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DE60LF
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Could anyone name me a list of potential customers for the LFS when Nova re-enters the U.S. market?
As I stated earlier, I would actually think ABQ RIDE could show interest in the LFS HEV when the time comes to replace the Neoplans and/or Thomases. Both the New Flyer DE40LFR and Nova LFS HEV use an Allison parallel hybrid system. They have considered the Gillig Advantage Hybrid prior to purchasing the DE40LFRs. Whoever gives ABQ RIDE the best deal will be who ABQ RIDE buys from. They will now have four options (New Flyer, Gillig, NABI, and Nova) that offer the Allison hybrid system. Orion is probably out of the question as the Orion VII NG HEV doesn't use the Allison parallel hybrid drivetrain, it uses a BAE HybriDrive series hybrid drivetrain. |
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