BusTalk

[BrooklynBus]

I need to know the seated and standing capacities for the various types of buses currently in service by NYCT. This includes both local and express type buses as well as artics. For the local buses, I need low floor, high floor, old coaches, CNG (if different), etc.

If anyone has info or even guestimates, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[Q65A]

I have a part manual that includes seating charts from American Seating Co. issued for NYCT's T80204 RTS's built from 1981-1983.
There are at least 2 different plans, based on specific S/N.
One chart shows a plan for seated 43 passengers in a 2&2 arrangement. No standee estimate was provided.
Another chart shows a slightly different 2&1 plan seating 42 passengers (again no estimate on # of standees).
I hope that this helps.

[DHF60]

I've been a driver with NYCT for over 17 years and have driven various bus types during that time. The following capacities are strictly based on counting the number of seats and approximating the space for standees.

1) RTS - 40 seated and about 30-35 standees for a total of 75 pasengers.

2) Orion V - 40 seated and about 30-35 standees for a total of 75 passengers.

3) Orion VII CNG & HEV - 38 seated and about 30-32 standees for a total of 70 passengers.

4) New Flyer D60HF articulated - 66 seated and about 60-64 standees for a total of 130 passengers

5) MCI 102DL/D4500 - 55 seated. I don't know about standees. I know that MTA Bus usually doesn't allow standees but I'm not sure about NYCT. My guess is that the bus could probably hold about 15 standees for a total capacity of 70 passengers.

Again these are approximations and not the actual manufacturers specifications.

[BrooklynBus]

Thank you both very much. I needed this information for a friend. Actually the estimates I already provided to her from my own estimation are virtually identical to the numbers you gave me. I shall forward the information.

I remember back in the 1960s when you were able to cram in 110 people into a New Look. I know because I actually stood on the street and counted all the people get it one day. Since these buses were not that different from the RTSs, I would assume the same would be possible with those buses, maybe even a few more since there are fewer seats. But I agree with you that a realistic capacity would be more like 75, since bus drivers no longer insist that all passengers move to the rear, and the passengers probably wouldn't even listen these days if they did. I now often see buses with only 60 passengers flag stops as if they were full.

[Mr. Linsky]

BrooklynBus,

Back in the days of yore (or during the era of the GM 'Old Look') the formula was; if the bus sat 44 it stood 22 or if the bus sat 51 it stood 25.

In other words the standee figure was always about one half of the seating figure.

However, all that has changed because most if not all buses today are a standard 102 inches in width allowing an additional six inches in the aisles which, in turn, allows more standees.

There were, of course, exceptions even in the old days with both the 4510's and 5105's being of the 102 inch widths but I am uncertain as to what their advertised standee capacities were.

Oh, that 'New Look' that you mention with 110 passengers; they must have been packed like sardines!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[BrooklynBus]

Another reason why the 1:2 standee ratio doesn't apply any more is that the forward facing seats are no longer 2x2 except for express or former express buses. They are 2 + 1 to allow for yet bigger aisles and more standees.

Yes the 110 passengers or sardines were packed to the rafters, from the back of the bus all the way down to the front stairwell where an additional six passengers stood. I should also mention that these were beach trips so I counted a fair amount of children. But I figure that the 110 figure would stay about the same if everyone were an adult and no one was carrying beach chairs and gear. Perhaps the capacity with only adults would be five fewer.

[Mr. Linsky]

BrooklynBus,

What ever happened to the 'Do Not Stand Forward of the White Line' routine that we had to enforce so vigorously?

I wouldn't move my bus unless I had clear vision through the front doors.

Seating capacity was academic in that there were so many seats and that was it.

But the standee specification always bothered me because none of us ever counted how many passengers we allowed on as standees. However, I know of no case of violation that ever reached the company. the union or the Public Service Commission.

I'll tell you though that any driver that allowed crowding forward of the line would have been in big time trouble had there been an accident with injuries to those riders!

I ran plenty of 'swinging' loads where they were packed even in the rear stair well (good thing those 'Old Look' rear doors opened out - or there would have been shear panic!).

About the only rule that I ignored altogether was the 'Do Not Talk to Operator While Bus is in Motion' (remember that one?). I'm a natural born talker and I always thought that interaction with the passengers was a good for the image of the company and emphasized the word 'Courtesy' in our logo.

That one was especially important when we had a good looking young lady sitting right behind us interested in riding to the end of the line (but I really shouldn't talk about that!).

Those WERE the days!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[BrooklynBus]

I remember drivers enforcing the stand behind white line rule both then and now. The only exception, however, were the beach runs. I don't know how Green Lines operated, but I would guess it was similar to the TA in that the beaches were grossly underserved. The TA had no handle on how many people used those buses. Extras were provided on nice days, but they were never enough. If there was a sudden rainstorm, then there was pure madness. I guess the drivers felt sorry for all those families who were trying to get to the beach or come home, that for a short time they "forgot" about that rule.

To give you an idea of how crowded the B49 used to get, sometimes after the buses would fill up, they would skip all stops for the next two or three miles unless someone had to exit. People, usually at non-transferring stops would sometimes have to miss six buses in a row and most would eventually would just give up after an hour of waiting and go back home or walk to the train a few blocks away. A few would hail a cab if they saw one.

Things are much better today service-wise, since they started counting the riders. about 20 years ago.

[Mr. Linsky]

BrooklynBus,

As summer relief drivers at Green Line, our first and foremost assignment in good weather was the 'Special' beach shuttles that started at Elliot Avenue and Queens Boulevard (the site of the old Elliot Avenue lot inherited from the Manhattan and Queens Bus Corporation years before) with main stops at Jamaica and Liberty Avenues to service the BMT lines.

We made three A.M. and two or three P.M. runs (depending on traffic) deadheading in the reverse direction and spent our layover time between shifts at the diner at 116th. Street and Beach Channel Drive.

We drove everything just short of the old Macks with no steering and no air - no cake walk!

We had starters in the evening at Riis park who collected fares at the rear doors with hand held registers and they watched capacities very carefully and would never allow any bus to take off over loaded.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't move a bus with any passenger standing forward of the white line - I couldn't drive safely that way - no way!

A sudden late afternoon rain storm could create riotous conditions with the passengers but nothing that we couldn't control!

I can't answer for the city operation at the time but I don't think they were as well organized as we were for these special assignments.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[BrooklynBus]

Mr. Linsky,

Sure sounds like Green Lines handled it much better than the City.

I never drove a bus, (unless you count about a minute in Floyd Bennett Field), but growing up without a car, I exclusively relied on the buses and trains, and saw as a kid that this beach situation was not handled properly. So when I started at the TA in 1981 I asked my boss if I could collect some data using my staff to prove to him that this problem existed. (I still have the numbers in my closet.) They proved exactly what I suspected regarding crowding. However, a few things came as a complete surprise. The buses were so behind schedule that the drivers threw the schedule out the window. At the end of their shift, all drivers missed their last trip entirely or were only able to cover a portion of it. Many drivers drove their next to last scheduled trip at five miles per hour in order to get to the terminal at the scheduled time for their last trip, or else spent their last 30 minutes at layup, to avoid a partial trip then went back to the garage. I asked one driver why he was staying there so long. He told me that he had radiator problems. When we checked the depot records, none were reported.

One driver, though really took the cake. After his first trip in the morning where he was carrying in excess of 100 passengers, we recorded his next five trips up and down the line with his "Not in Service" sign on, and not carrying a single passenger! I've always wondered if he was ever reprimanded for this.

Between 4 and 5 o'clock, when most people wanted to leave the beach, one third of the buses were scheduled to run off to the depot after a short trip, and were virtually useless to most of the passengers. One of the few things I was able to accomplish was to get the schedule rewritten so as to carry the passengers on these trips further down the line. It turned out that this new schedule provided 11 extra trips and ended up costing less money to operate! And the only way I could get this done was by going around proper channels by avoiding my boss and using a personal connection by going directly to Schedules

BrooklynBus.

[Mr. Linsky]

BrooklynBus,

We did have schedules and, in fact, Green Line touted them both in local newspapers and in placards on the buses.

However, the traffic picture on Woodhaven/Crossbay Boulevards was so unpredictable (or predictable!) that those schedules really went right out the window.

In any event, we had excellent coverage running anywhwere from ten to twelve buses at any given time on the route so it was almost a sure thing that one of us would reach any given point well within the advertised time frame.

I have attached a photo of just what we were up against on Crossbay Boulevard on a daily basis, and if you look real carefully in the background you'll see at least two of us trying to make our way to the beach on a real hot summer day.

The traffic worsened as cars flowed onto Crossbay from the Belt.

We had a lot of fun though deadheading back to Queens Boulevard in bunches with one trying to out race the next - we were usually assigned 4507's that were real dogs but on occasion I was lucky enough to get a 4509 and they really rolled!

Don't forget that we were mostly college kids out looking for a good time -met a lot of interesting people and gained some life experiences.

Not that I was related to Bill Cooper (a co founder and long time president of the Green Line) but Sol Levine, Mr. Cooper's second in command in those days, told me that if I stayed on I'd have a good future with the company (meaning that I would have gone up the ladder quite quickly).

But my parents had other ideas for me - namely a career in law - and they were right!

Below photo is presented for educational purposes only.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[BrooklynBus]

Mr. Linsky,

The TA also did some deadheading in the summer time, but it still wasn't enough. Is that really a picture of Cross Bay Blvd? Why is the traffic only going one way? Was it converted to one way during peak summer hours or is that another street?

So I guess that you listened to your parents and became a lawyer or did you not listen and stay with Green Lines?

Several years ago at the NYCT Busfest,I picked up a model of a 1940s type Green Lines Bus but you must have a whole fleet of them.

BrooklynBus

[Mr. Linsky]

BrooklynBus,

I did become a lawyer, but I think I would have been happier driving a bus!

Your comment on Crossbay Boulevard is interesting; the picture is certified as being such by the 'Old Rockaway Photos' website and the large pointed roofed structure in the left background was or still is a landmark restaurant in Howard Beach.

You may also note that the median which was a landscaped island seperating the north and south roadways of the boulevard had been removed to adjust traffic patterns during the summer months.

This picture was taken sometime around 1952 fully seven years before my first season with the company, and by then any altered traffic patterns had been eliminated because we had a clean shot deadheading in either direction.

Believe it or not, the only model that I do have is the 'Corgi' Green Line TDH 4507 #310 and only because I drove that bus so many times!

Mr.Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

BrooklynBus,

Firstly, Happy New Year and many more!

I must apologize for one slight error on the Crossbay photo;

It was taken at Broad Channel and not Howard Beach (same difference) which is, as you probably know, a small development on the causeway between Howard Beach and the Rockaways.

The picture comes from; http://www.farrockaway.com/carol/morpPlayland4.html where you'll find great shots of the Rockaways both present and past.

I have attached another interesting image taken in the early forties of a 'Bee Line' (L.I.) Mack Model 'CW' standing on Mott Avenue in Far Rockaway, and you will notice on the very left edge of the picture a group of 1933 Green Line Macks parked in a lot (very rare sighting!).

Hope that straightens things out.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[BrooklynBus]

Mr. Linsky,

A most Happy and Healthy New Year to you too.

Thanks for the photo explanation although I'm still curious about the one-way traffic. That Bee Line bus looks amazingly like the NYC trolley coaches minus the poles.

I've only been to Far Rockaway about four times in my life. Checked out the website. Saw the Rockaways Playland photos. Sadly, I was only there once a year or two before it closed. It was badly neglected by then, and I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about.

When I was in college, I wrote a paper about the history of South Jamaica which included looking at all their bus routes. I wrote to the private companies then serving the area and received a bunch of maps and schedules. I still have them somewhere, including ones from Bee Lines. That was in the late sixties.

BrooklynBus