BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

I am curious as to what types of buses dominated the fleets in these two cities, back in the 50s and 60s. Did GMC's dominate, or were Macks (or other manufacturers) also commonplace? When did the last "Old Look" (or non-Fishbowl/New Look-style) coaches last run in these cities? Thanks much for any info you might have. John

[Mr. Linsky]

John,

Before World War II, the International Railway Company of Buffalo was a very large Mack customer and, in fact, purchased 370 Model CW's alone.

Immediately after the war they did purchase 50 C-41-G Macks under the same name.

However, that name disappeared and Buffalo Transit Company purchased a number of GM TDH 4509's and 4512's bewteen 1952 and 1953.

Beyond that the only further GM purchases went to Niagara Frontier Transit System.

Niagara was also a very large post war Mack customer purchasing 545 buses and designing the 'New Look' front end.

United Traction of Albany was also a very large prewar Mack customer buying a total of 147 buses between 1934 and 1943.

I will have to look further but the records show only one postwar Mack order which may mean that they switched to GM sometime in the late forties.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. Linsky: Interesting (as is the norm!) history and info! Much appreciated! I think I now recalling reading awhile ago about Buffalo bieng a stronghold for Macks, many years back. Given the brutal winters in and around the Buffalo area, it would seem that a "tough" coach (like Macks) would be an ideal choice for such cities. Of course, the GM's were pretty tough customers themselves! BTW, while talking about non-New York City Macks, I have in my archives a couple of pictures of ex-Yonkers Macks, that were bieng used for storage as well as spare parts for the defunct Blue & White Bus Company in Hudson County, NJ, back in 1974. These relics still retained the "RIDE ON AIR" lettering under the rear windows. These buses were bieng used to provide parts for the company's small fleet of 1959 C47DT's, with New Look front ends! Man, I'm glad I had my camera with me that day! John

[Mr. Linsky]

John,

Here's a picture of a great Mack for your collection.

Story coming up on 'Bus Nostalgia' shortly.

Good night!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[HwyHaulier]

John - Mr. Linsky -

Seems to me we had a group of Twin Coach transits bouncing around the Buffalo streets in the early 1960s, too...

NFT had a good sized group of TDH-51xx types on the roster. Traveling around the city, one thought the New Look Macks were some
sort of universal experience!

In a curious side note, somewhere ca. 1963 NFT had it in its collective head it could build its own coaches at lower cost in its own shops.
They happily bought into cheerful chatter about Space Age materials and so on. Hinted they planned to keep the coaches together with
Crazy Glue. There was a one off they proudly ran all over town. Received a good bit of positive press! Can't recall the coach line number.

Ah! Shuffle Off To Buffalo!

........................Vern................

[Dieseljim]

NFT did indeed purchase some GMC TDH5106s in the mid 1950s and another group in 1958, which were among the last of that model to be built before the 5301 New Looks were introduced. In addition, when NFT merged Buffalo Transit Company into its operation, 20 more 5106s came with that company along with ten TDH5302s Nos. 340-349, which became NFT Nos. 700-709, while the BTC 5106s 300-319 became NFT 600-619 and many of these survived until 1979-1980 as did at least a few of the 6300 series Macks before they were replaced with new buses starting with the AM Generals and GMC RTSIIs. I remember riding a 6300 series Mack at that late date in Buffalo. It was on a 19-Bailey run. I believe NFT disposed of the BTC 45 seaters as they evidently wanted to standardize on one size of bus and as few models as possible for standardization of parts stores and maintenance. I believe NFT got some additional 7400s that took that series up to 7489 as the result of cancellation or taking over a BTC order for 20 " new look" buses of 30 orders and of which, just the 5302s were ever delivered. According to a reprint of a Courier Express article I read, 20 of these buses were to be 55 seaters which would have made them single door "muzzleloaders" and the only such oddball 5301s in the fleet. Does anyone have an all time NFT roster and a BTC roster showing the Buffalo Transit Company in its final years?

[Mr. Linsky]

seljim,

I would have to research my GM and Mack production records to answer your question as to when Buffalo Transit enjoyed its final years.

However, you may cull some of the information including more detail on the pictures below within my 'Bus Nostalgia' series under 'Manufacturers' on this site.

In the meantime, here's a little 'Nostalgia' for all you Buffalo fans;



Niagara Frontier Transit revenue collection Mack.


Mr.Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Dieseljim]

Buffalo Transit Company's final years were in the early 1960s, during which the ten GM TDH5302s were delivered in 1960, shortly before NFT gained control of the company, but continued to operate separately, though BTC timetables had begun to be printed using the format used by NFT at that time.Buffalo Transit Company was divided into Broadway, Lakeshore, and Williamsville Divisions with the headquarters at 200 Broadway also being the hq for the Broadway Division as well. Routes that comprised the Williamsville Division became NFT 8-Main Williamsville-North Bailey Meadows, 13 -Kensington-Williamsville-Cleveland-Maryvale,28A Sheridan Drive Shuttle (since discontinued). The No.8 Williamsville route and branches is now Routes 48 Williamsville, 49-Hopkins, with the 30 Kenmore River Road routed to the airport via Main to Union Road. The former Broadway Division consists of 4-Broadway-Cheektowaga/Depew/Lancaster/Alden.24 Genesee suburban. I don't have any BTC schedules in my files though I sure would like to get my hands on some, even if they are copies, though originals are preferable. Same goes for NFT as well. The Lakeshore Division of BTC covered those routes south of the cities of Buffalo and Lackawanna and covered Lackawanna as well. When BTC was fully merged into the NFT around 1963-64, the BTC buses NFT chose to retain were repainted and had their destination and route signs changed to conform to NFT practice of Route Number, Variation letter, destination all shown on the front of the bus above the windshield. Name of route was and is shown in the first standee window behind the front door.

[Dieseljim]

The buses that NFT chose to keep from the Buffalo Transit Company's fleet of more than 100 buses were TDH5106s nos.300-319 renumbered to 600-619 and the TDH5302s 340-349,which became 700-709 and were the last new buses received by BTC, the 5106s being the last old look buses received by that company. NFT had previously received a total of 35 of these buses in two groups, of which the last ones arrived in 1959, the earlier batch in 1954. These two groups of buses marked the beginning of the end for the large Mack fleet that was still in service at that time. Before it came, there was one last order for Macks to come and that was for C49DTs 6300-6359, with the "new look" front ends and delivered in two groups of 30 buses each. As for the BTC fleet, NFT decided NOT to retain any of the 45 seaters or any remaining 36 seat buses in that company's fleet, electing to standardized on one size bus as much as possible and the 49 seat Macks and 51 seat GMCs filled that bill perfectly, though the TDH5301s, 7400-7459, which came in 1960, likewise, seated 49 passengers rather than the 53 they were designed for. A cancelled BTC order for 20 of these buses would have had them configured to seat 55 passengers, thus no rear door making them the only 'muzzle loaders' in the fleet. I believe the NFT took over this cancelled order and wound up with approx. 90 of the 5301s, numbers ending at 7489. Thus, NFT received the very GMC bus design that would finish off most of the remaining Macks and the Twin Coaches. The rest, they say, is history.

[Mr. Linsky]

About thirty years ago when I had my office in Hempstead (L.I.), I had occasion to visit a client a short distance away in East Meadow.

I'm riding along Front Street through what was then the last of the local farming tracts in the area when I spot this old bus in the weeds behind an antique Victorian style house and, with my curiousity aroused, I pulled into the driveway hoping for a closer look.

Of course, I knocked at the door to ask permission to examine the bus, and the occupants were very cordial in allowing me to do so but did not know who owned it.

It was a pre-war Mack the exterior of which was pretty badly rusted out with no discernable fleet markings.

However, the interior wasn't too bad (despite the fact that someone had removed the seats, blocked up the rear door and turned it into a machine shop) and the name International Railway Company was still quite clearly visible over the windshield.

My purpose in looking at the bus in the first place was to see if it might have been restorable for use in movie work out here in L.A.

I wasn't much into Mack models other than the CT's and CM's of Green Line (NY) at the time but it was probably one of the 370 CW's that IRC purchased back in the late thirties.

I never saw the bus again and it has probably long since been recycled.

If it were today, you can bet that I would have done anything to save it because there just aren't any of them around any more!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Dieseljim]

I believe that Regional Transit Service of Rochester,NY has at least one TDH5106 from the 101-120 group of 1958 still around as part of a historical fleet along with the recently restored TDH4512, though not a Rochester original has been restored to full Rochester Transit Corporation colors, It seems as RTS may have saved at least one example of each type of bus operated during the postwar era, especially 1950s and later. I would have to find that out and if one of the ex Trailways SDM4501/4502s they used on the 21-Fairport line could be among them. These were RTS's only stick shift buses when they bought up Empire Trailways' suburban lines, all of which Empire picked up from Greyhound, their original operator. The first three were SDM4501s 190-192 in the Empire Trailways numbers re"90-92 in RTS and the other two were SDM4502s 193-194 re#93-94 delivered to Empire in 1966. These two buses came with four piece rear windows and single arm wipers,but were otherwise identical to the other three, which retained their double arm pantograph wipers and 3 piece rear windows right to the end of their RTS careers. Perhaps at least some of the suburbans did not have the t rouble with the large piece of glass on the rear window cracking as the transits did.

[Dieseljim]

Buffalo's last GMC old looks last ran in 1979-1980 as did the last Macks, which were the 6300 series New Look Macks.Niagara Frontier Transit got its first GMC's in 1953 and got some more a couple years later, all of them 5106s, of which the Buffalo Transit Company got theirs in 1958-59,rounding out the 5106 for the Buffalo area. Between the two fleets of 5106s, after BTC was merged into the NFT, that company wound up with 65 of the 5106s altogether.uote="NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629"]I am curious as to what types of buses Buffdominated the fleets in these two cities, back in the 50s and 60s. Did GMC's dominate, or were Macks (or other manufacturers) also commonplace? When did the last "Old Look" (or non-Fishbowl/New Look-style) coaches last run in these cities? Thanks much for any info you might have. John[/quote]

[Mr. Linsky]

D. J.,

The Omnibus Corporation, which was the dominant carrier in New York city proper (meaning mostly Manhattan) was pretty much Yellow/GM all the way'

This probably being because they had a long and extremely close association with General Motors.

One of their last and largest orders before take over by the city were 360 TDH 4509's (one pictured below) that were shared between their Fifth Avenue Coach, New York City Omnibus, Eighth Avenue Coach, and both Madison and Lexington lines.

The other large operator in the city which was absorbed by the Omnibus Corporation was Surface Transportation System and they favored Macks.

The city itself started off in 1947 with GM equipment and did see one or two large orders of special C-49 and C-50 Macks toward the end of Mack's era in 1960.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Dieseljim]

That one off bus number was 1000 and it ended up with Mack components from a retired Mack bus in it. All told, NFT had now fewer than 65 of the TDH5106s in its fleet, these included the 20 inherited from the Buffalo Transit Company.