BusTalk

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Hello. I would like to know why New Flyer does not intend on producing a C60LF or C60LFR. While some transit authorites believe that CNG articulated buses have safety flaws, the sales of the NABI 60-BRT (which of a majority are CNG-powered) would seem to suggest otherwise. Many have claimed that the reason for Neoplan's demise was due to their CNG-powered AN460 articulated bus. NABI is actually doing well on the 60-BRT CNG.

Even though the market for diesel-electric (and gasoline-electric) buses is overtaking the CNG market, there will always be some exceptions.

Speaking of this, I wonder if New Flyer has a GE60LF or GE60LFR in the works. A problem with a GE60LF would be that gasoline engines by design produce less torque than diesel engines. Some transit authorities in southern California might show interest in a GE60LF, though.

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Well, does anyone have an idea?

ripta42 · Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:33 am Post subject:

Try asking New Flyer! I'd suggest either Sales & Marketing or General Comments.

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Response from New Flyer:

tovinman · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 24

Problem with CNG buses is the fuel piping from the tanks on the front section to the rear of the coach - nobody makes a flexible CNG-compliant hose capable of bending repeatedly over and over and over and so far no authority is willing to certify such a usage.

RailBus63 · Moderator Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063

Neoplan did build CNG articulateds for Boston's MBTA:

The Port of Authority · Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 118 Location: Hong Kong

And NABI makes CNG-powered 60-BRTs (and 65-BRTs soon, as well.)

I also saw a number of CNG articulated buses in China, although those are probably held to lower standards than our coaches.

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

RailBus63 · Moderator Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063

I would be surprised if Orion offers a CNG version of its articulated bus - I expect it will offer clean-diesel and hybrid as New Flyer does.

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

I actually wonder, do LNG-powered articulated buses exist? The LNG market is very small. In fact, I haven't heard of any orders for LNG buses from New Flyer in over a year.

Perhpas a gasoline-electric hybrid articulated bus may be a safer option than CNG for some TAs who refuse to purchase diesel or diesel-electric buses. However, as I stated earlier, a gasoline engine may not provide sufficient torque for an artic, however, with the hybrid technology available, it could perhaps work. The GE40LF uses a Ford Triton V10 engine in tandem with the ISE-Siemens ThunderVolt series hybrid system.

tovinman · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 24

I guess I should point out, further to what I stated before, that there has never been a CNG articulated built with a roof-mounted tank assembly; the lack of a suitable flexible fuel line being NFI's reason for not doing so.

I think that one or two units were built with underfloor tanks, but they were C60HFs and the tanks had to be mounted under the rear section; it can't be done on lowfloors.

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Q65A · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject:

The MTA ran a study on Orion VII's (HEV's based at MCH and CNG's based at WF), and they claimed that the HEV's had lower costs per mile overall than the CNG's.
The main differences as I recall were in brake lining costs.
It appears that the regenerative braking on an HEV is more efficient at retarding than a transmission retarder on a CNG.
Another issue involved exhaust emissions; perhaps the fact that an HEV uses a relatively small diesel engine helps reduce overall emissions, while a CNG usually uses a larger displacement engine.
Finally, the CNG's do require specialized physical plant for refueling, while hybrids can be used wherever conventional diesels are refuelled.
I think that I had posted a link to this article elsewhere @ BT3, but I don't recall exactly where.
That said, perhaps CNG buses categorically (both artics and single units) have cost structures that are not as favorable as that of hybrids (once you get past the high initial purchase price of an HEV).

Q65A · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject:

Here are the articles:
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/fleettest/pdfs/40125.pdf

http://walshcarlines.com/pdf/hybrid/NYCT%20Hybrid%20Program%20EPRI-EVAA%2010-02%20%5BRead-Only%5D.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/retrofit/documents/nyc_2.pdf

http://www1/eere/energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/heavy/nyct_interim_report_final.pdf

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/nyct_diesel_hybrid_final.pdf

RailBus63 · Moderator Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063

Boston's MBTA built two new garages for CNG buses (Arborway and Southampton) and rebuilt one older garage (Cabot), but the cost of retrofitting other older facilities was noted when the Authority decided to embrace clean-diesel technology instead of natural gas for future bus purchases.