BusTalk Forum Index BusTalk
A Community Discussing Buses and Bus Operations Worldwide!
 
 BusTalk MainBusTalk Main FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups BusTalk GalleriesBusTalk Galleries   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

'Bee Line History & Vintage White Buses In General'
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BusTalk Forum Index -> Long Island & Westchester Buses
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: 'Bee Line History & Vintage White Buses In General' Reply with quote

THE BUSES AND HISTORY OF BEE LINE, INC (LONG ISLAND)


ROSTER;

PRESERVED COACHES;

1930 ACF Model S-85-2-001 Fleet # 100 Preserved by Harry Zerrenner, New York
1931 ACF Model P-64-901-040 Fleet # 135 Preserved by Jack Seidler, Hyde Park, New York
1941 ACF Model 36S-379 Fleet # 234 Preseved by Trolley Valhalla, Dublin, Pa.
1944 White Model 798 (ser# 302092) Fleet # 315 Preserved by Jack Seidler, Hyde Park, New York
1944 White Model 798 (ser# 302101) Fleet # 324 Preserved by Jack Seidler, Hyde Park, New York
1956 GM Model TDH 4512 (ser# 1683) Fleet # 564 Preserved by Jack Seidler, Hyde Park, New York
1951 Mack C-45-DT (ser# 5356 and 5360) Fleet # 514 and 518 Preserved by Trolley Valhalla, Dublin, Pa.

PURCHASED COACHES;

ACF;

S-85-2-001 Fleet # 100 Delivered 1930 (part of an unknown order)
P-64-901-040 Fleet # 135 Delivered 1931 (part of an unknown order)
36S-379 Fleet # 234 (part of an unknown order)

MACK;

C-45-DT (ser# 5342 TO 5361) Fleet # 500 to 519 Delivered 1951
C-49-DT New Look Front End (ser # 2334 to 2338) Fleet # 620 to 624 Delivered July 1959

WHITE;

1944 Model 728 (ser# ranging from 302077 to 302101) Fleet # ranging from 300 to 324

FLXIBLE;

FD6V-401-7 (SER# 35021) Fleet # 35021 (Demo) Delivery date unknown

GM;

TDH 3610 (ser# 0186 to 0200) Fleet # 400 to 414 Delivered January 1947

TDH 4517 (ser# 0069 Demo) Fleet # 565 Delivered April 1960
TDH 4517 (ser# 1280 to 1284) Fleet # 566 to 570 Delivered October 1961

TDH 4509 (ser# 2419 to 2428) Fleet # 530 to 539 Delivered April 1953

TDH 4512 (ser# 0027 to 0036) Fleet # 540 to 549 Delivered October 1953 Note; # 540 & 542 to Van Buren Bus Company (NJ) 1967.
TDH 4512 (ser# 0901 to 0910) Fleet # 550 to 559 Delivered February 1955
TDH 4512 (ser# 1679 to 1683) Fleet # 560 to 564 Delivered September 1956

TDH 5106 (ser# 1365 to 1369) Fleet # 610 to 614 Delivered April 1958
TDH 5106 (ser# 1599 to 1603) Fleet # 615 to 619 Delivered March 1959

TDH 5302 (ser# 0335 to 0344) Fleet # 625 to 634 Delivered February 1961
TDH 5302 (ser# 0583 to 0592) Fleet # 635 to 644 Delivered April 1962

TDH 5304 (ser# 0076 to 0080) Fleet # 645 to 649 Delivered April 1963
TDH 5304 (ser# 0346 to 0350) Fleet # 650 to 654 Delivered April 1964
TDH 5304 (ser# 0957 to 0961) Fleet # 655 to 669 Delivered November 1965
TDH 5304 (ser# 1038 to 1042) Fleet # 670 to 674 Delivered April 1966

T6H 5306 (ser# 0276 to 0280) Fleet # 689 to 693 Delivered December 1969

T8H 5306 (ser# 0001 to 0004) Fleet # 685 to 688 Delivered June 1969

SDM 5302 (ser# 0938) Fleet # 680 Delivered May 1967

HISTORY;

From its inception in 1922 Bee Line, Inc. of Nassau County was destined, at least for a time, to be a major player in the reformation of transit bus franchising in neighboring Queens.

Because of public complaints of chaotic and very sporadic services being rendered by hoards of ‘wildcat’ operators in the borough in the early thirties, then Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia decided to break the county up into four franchised zones;. Zone ‘A’ would encompass Woodside (awarded to Triboro Coach Corporation), Zone ‘B’ for Flushing (awarded to North Shore Bus Company), Zone ‘C’ south and west of Jamaica (awarded to Green Bus Lines, Inc.), and Zone ‘D’ Jamaica proper (awarded to Bee Line, Inc.).

Each of the awarded companies had absorbed enough routes and had sufficient equipment and manpower to meet the requirements of the franchise agreements.

However, Bee Line’s term of office so to speak was short lived and ended almost before it began due to its ongoing internal labor problems, disputes with the city and a poorly maintained fleet (North Shore stepped in to fill the gap).

Nevertheless, Bee Line did maintain feeder routes from Nassau to Jamaica and eventually went on to acquire the assets of Rockville Centre Bus Corporation, Utilities Lines, Inc. and Stage Coach Lines before it was taken over by the Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority in the early seventies.

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne, NY

See a preserved ACF coach below.

Photo borrowed from Bus Talk III Gallery for educational purposes only.



Last edited by Mr. Linsky on Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:05 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the rosters and concise information on Bee Line, Mr. Linsky. The preserved ACF is a beauty. (As is the fishbowl.) The White's weren't too popular in New York, were they?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

Thanks for the compliment - I really went all out to gather as much information as I could on the company, but what made it easier was the fact that I remembered so much about them.

The photo was taken in 1960 when the 4517 (which was a demo) was spanking new, and obviously the theme was to highlight the newest and the oldest.

It occurs to me that Jack Seidler, the gentleman from Hyde Park, N.Y. that has four of Bee Line's antiquities, might well have been connected with the company because these are the only buses listed in the preserved coach registry for him - in other words, he's not basically a collector.

White was a contender in the thirties and early forties, and there were a number of companies (not the least of which being Capital Transit in Washington, D.C.) that swore by them, but their appearance on the streets on New York was sporadic at best and, of course, dwarfed by both GM's and Mack's presence.

I think their big problem was that they could never really get away from their basic thirties design which helped them to their demise!

Now, the question becomes; where do I go from here with rosters? I've already done Jamaica, Green Line and Schenck which were among the larger PBL's in my neck of the woods, and to tackle the big boys (FACCO and STS etc.) would be way too complicated for me!

I guess I'll go back to concentrating on vintage bus ads - I enjoy that! (and it's easy!).

Thanks again.

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne, NY


Last edited by Mr. Linsky on Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like the Mack's, I've never lived anywhere where there were White's either. They seem to have been quite popular in many areas through the late 40's. San Francisco, in particular, comes to mind.

Whatever you research and post for us is most appreciated, Mr. Linsky. Thanks for taking the time to do it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The focus of the picture below is not on the B.O.T. GM 4507 # 2048 (to be highlighted under Manufacturers) but on the very interesting coach in the background which escaped my notice originally.

It is Bee Line # 315 - a 1944 White model 798 (ser# 302092) signed for the subway in Jamaica (probably taken in Queens Village).

# 315 was part of a twenty-five bus order and, because it was war time, would have had to have been purchased with the permission of the Defense Department.

This bus has been preserved by a private owner in upstate New York (see Bee Line Roster).

Photo courtesy of Vincent A. Syrek - GMOldLookBus

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne, NY

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Whites had a "grumpy" look, didn't they? Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberider wrote:
The Whites had a "grumpy" look, didn't they? Laughing


Dave,

I hope their aren't too many White fans in the audience because they're not going to like much of what I'm about to say!

From a driver's standpoint of view White buses had a reputation of being 'dogs' to drive - they couldn't get out of their own way!

I remember the Bee Line Whites that traversed Hillside Avenue in Queens years ago (undoubtedly, # 315 in the picture was one of them) and, aside from the funniest nasal engine noises and billowing smoke (they probably needed ring jobs), they moved like snails!

I honestly believe that anyone who bought a White bus did so because they couldn't get credit from Yellow Coach Acceptance Corporation!

Now to smooth out any ruffled feathers; I know they were cute buses and they do have a place in the history of surface transportation but with less then so so reviews!

Mr. Linsky
"Thge Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne, NY
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky,

If there are any White fans out there, I've never heard from them. It would be interesting to get the story from those who have driven and ridden these buses. They apparently were pretty durable (when maintained) as the one's in San Francisco lasted until the mid-60's and a couple of cut-down versions used on a particularly hilly line even longer than that. I've read about complaints from noise and fumes from the famous underfloor White pancake gas engines. Good or bad, I would like to find out more about the Whites.

Thanks for more interesting photos and stories, Mr. Linsky!

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberider wrote:
Mr. Linsky,

If there are any White fans out there, I've never heard from them. It would be interesting to get the story from those who have driven and ridden these buses. They apparently were pretty durable (when maintained) as the one's in San Francisco lasted until the mid-60's and a couple of cut-down versions used on a particularly hilly line even longer than that. I've read about complaints from noise and fumes from the famous underfloor White pancake gas engines. Good or bad, I would like to find out more about the Whites.

Thanks for more interesting photos and stories, Mr. Linsky!

Dave


Dave,

In all fairness it has to be remembered that World War II leveled the playing field for all bus companies in that new equipment that was sorely needed was mostly unavailable, and a shortage of mechanics made routine maintenance almost impossible.

Green Line's drivers kept the Macks going with glue and toothpicks, and I would expect that White operators were in the same boat.

The White was a strong bus but just was not engineered as well as the Mack or the GM! - whether a lot had to do with the pancake engine (a design that I never liked) I don't know - but, I do know that they lacked power - that was the big complaint (for that matter, so did the Mack 'CT' model).

Vince recommended an interesting book entitled 'New York City Transit Buses - 1945 - 1975' which may have some answers - I have just ordered a copy through Iconografix (item # 10241 - 1 800 289 3504) if you're interested. (http://www.iconografixinc.com/company.html).

In the meantime, I'll try to dig up more on White (there are a couple of ads that I'll run shortly in the 'Manufacturers' forum).

Regards.

Mr. 'L' - GBL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be great, Mr. Linsky. You have a knack for digging up interesting information!

I have the book book about the NYC buses but don't remember seeing too much about the Whites since they weren't that well represented there. I have another book about transit buses in general and probably should re-read that as there was a section on the Whites.

The underpowered topic makes me think of a photo of some PE buses and they favored White for many years. PE had both city and suburban White 798's and there is a photo of a whole string of them driving up a mountain road taking people of Japanese descent from the Los Angeles to a camp in east central CA during WWII. I wonder how fast they were going up that hill?!

Of course, the GM Old Looks are my favorite but all the buses of that era are interesting.

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: 'WHITE' Reply with quote

Dave,

I didn't realize it but Santa Monica Municipal Bus Lines was quite a White customer from the mid thirties up until 1952.

The following are excerpts from 'History of Santa Monica's Big Blue Bus';

First came eight White Model 706's in 1936 and 1937. These buses, with their six cylinder engines still forward, were built for light duty work.

Next, White developed an ultra modern coach with a 12 cylinder engine under the floor which developed 210 horsepower, and Santa Monica became one of the first customers for the forty seat version (model 786) with the purchase of twelve in 1938.

In 1940, the city bought seven of the larger Model 788's also with 12 cylinder undferfloor engines.

During the onset of the war eighteen of the smallest models in the series were purchased with 34 seats and a six cyliner engine to handle lighter schedules.

Unfortunately, some of these buses became so overloaded that they could not reach the top of the hills on the western portion of Ocean Park Boulevard unless some passengers volunteered to get off and walk!

The city then obtained permission from the Office of Defense Transportation to buy ten White Model 798's with 44 seats and rear exit doors (their first double door buses).

DAVE - HERE'S THE INTERESTING PART;

As with all Whites having a gasoline engine, the buses left a lasting impression on those who rode in them. As the buses grew older, the seals around the engine covers began to deteriorate and the specially built 'defumer' ceased to function efficiently (can you imagine that they had to have specially built defumers to start with?!).

The inside of the bus reeked of gasoline even though small holes were drilled in the doors to help eliminate the smell.

As gasoline prices rose, the twelve cylinder engines on these buses, which only returned one and a half miles to the gallon , became increasingly uneconomical. Patrons certainly didn't grieve when they were retired!

In 1952, the city purchased 12 of White's final model - the 1144D.

It had a Diesel engine and was built like a battleship, but with weak brakes and power steering that only worked half the time! The roar of its large Cummins engine and the whine of its transmission could be heard clearly a mile away!

However, these buses remained popular with passengers during their thirteen years with the company.

I guess this answers some of our questions!

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc. Jamaica & Arverne, NY
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're getting close to home with the SMMBL White's! The fumes and noise make our GM Old Looks very attractive in comparison. I believe the San Francisco Whites had signs in them telling patrons that the bus was ventilated so they were safe from the fumes, or something of the sort.

As an aside, there was a White 798 in my hometown of Tempe, AZ at a junkyard for many years. It wasn't a local bus because there weren't any Whites here. As I recall, it was in a faded black and orange scheme. Guess it's been 25 years since the area was redeveloped and the junkyard and the White 798 dusappeared.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberider wrote:
We're getting close to home with the SMMBL White's! The fumes and noise make our GM Old Looks very attractive in comparison. I believe the San Francisco Whites had signs in them telling patrons that the bus was ventilated so they were safe from the fumes, or something of the sort.

As an aside, there was a White 798 in my hometown of Tempe, AZ at a junkyard for many years. It wasn't a local bus because there weren't any Whites here. As I recall, it was in a faded black and orange scheme. Guess it's been 25 years since the area was redeveloped and the junkyard and the White 798 dusappeared.


Dave,

My question is; what was it that ACF, White and Twin Coach saw in underfloor 'pancake' engines to start with? GM/Yellow and Mack gave up on that idea nearly from day one! - you think they knew something that these other fellows didn't?

I had said in an earlier post that I disliked the underfloor engine design, but I didn't comment as to why until now;

Gasoline engines were always more susceptible to fires then Diesels. Green Line had some such incidents in their Mack engine compartments but those events were contained at the rear of the bus with little danger to the passengers.

I'm afraid that the consequences of a fire under the floor dead center of a coach might have been more harmful especially in full load conditions.

I also have to imagine that servicing underfloor engines must have been more difficult and dirty for the interior where mechanics greasy fingerprints probably proliferated.

BTW; Cleveland was one of the largest midwest White operators.

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne, NY
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question, Mr. Linsky. I suppose it took less engineering to get the power to the rear wheels with an underfloor engine/transmission than a transversely-mounted engine in the rear. Perhaps Yellow and Mack had patents on their angle-drive systems? I think the main reason, though, is that it was just cheaper to produce. In retrospect, it was clearly an inferior system for the reasons you gave.

The post war Twins are another interesting example. They were popular in many places including Chicago and Cleveland. I can't remember reading anywhere about concerns of fumes and noise from these buses. I thought they were rather futuristic looking for a 1946 design and remember them from when I was a child in Cleveland. The Whites apparently didn't make the same impression on me as I don't remember them but have seen pictures of them operating in Cleveland.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

You're on the right track concerning 'angle drive' for which GM/Yellow acquired the patent by hiring its inventor Dwight Austin in 1934.

An interesting excerpt from Motor Coach Age July-August 1991 - Yellow Coach and GM Buses; Integral Buses, 1931-1942;

"To the existing advantages of a rear engine installation, which put the noise, heat and fumes of the engine behind the passengers and also provided a nearly ideal two thirds to one third weight distribution, angle drive added a simplification of maintenance made possible by mounting the engine transversely. With a mechanical transmission there was no appreciable loss of power compared with a straight in engine"

While GM was susccessful right off the bat with angle drive, and featured it on both the 720 and 735 double deckers for Chicago and New York, Mack engineers weren't as lucky and spent years until they finally developed their own version.

BTW; the one and only attempt by GM/Yellow at mounting an engine 'amidships' was back in a 1929 prototype (a bad year all around!) using two Cadillac V-8's in an effort to compete with Twin"s highly successful 40 passenger model which used similarly mounted twin Waukeshas.

The design was never produced for marketing.

Mr.Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne, NY
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BusTalk Forum Index -> Long Island & Westchester Buses All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group