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South, East, and all around the town.......
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many years back, there had been plans for connections just east of the "GG" (today's "G") line; there was to have been a massive six track, four platform station (much like Hoyt-Schemerhorn), built into the ceiling of the Broadway station.

This was to be the main transfer point for converging trains; S. 4th St. was also intended to be a major interchange when the "second phase" of the IND was first proposed.

There would have also been a two-level maze of connecting tracks between Havemeyer St. and Varet St., along S. 4th St.; under this arrangement, one pair of tracks would have turned under Myrtle avenue, while the other two pairs would have been a four-track line under Stuyvesant Place, feeding into Utica Avenue.

The middle track of the Bedford-Nostrand station of the "GG" would have continued on Lafayette to Stanhope St., where it would have met the line on Myrtle Avenue, also forming a four-track trunk line.

There would have also been four track lines on Flushing Avenue to Horace Harding Boulevard, four tracks along Broadway (Brooklyn), and four tracks along Utica Avenue.

Alas, what might have been.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From LIRR MU's to "Tee-Yay" subway trains, here is the history of "The Subway That Went To Sea".......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IND_Rockaway_Line *

*Note that plans for the City to take over the LIRR line for subway operations dated back to 1932.........
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Tee-Yay" opening day on the Rockaway line (1956); note, here, that new R-16's are running, even though the new Rockaway line was deemed a part of the IND network, and the R-16's were virtually associated with the BMT routes.......

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75677

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75688
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old meets new, in this 1969 photo, taken at the Rockaway Parkway-Beach 116th St. terminal.

Note that the work-weary IND "R-9" car on the right is displaying signs for the "GG" ........

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?80157

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYO--

Some interesting thoughts on the subway, a lot more discussion on it can be found on this site, but there are some "crazies" over there, so I would suggest reading posts, but be careful about actually posting...
https://www.nyctransitforums.com/

Regarding the running of SIRT trains into Brooklyn and Manhattan over BMT lines...
there would be a very big stumbling block, unless some sort of waiver would be legislated...the SIRT was run under ICC railroad rules and regulations (still is!), with differences in operating rules, equipment and labor rules. SIRT employees are 'railroad' employees, working under railway labor act, in RR unions, and contribute to Railroad Retirement. TA employees are civil service, under transit union, and rules.


I would have loved it if the IND World's Fair extension remained. If so, I am fairly sure they would have added a station stop at Jewel Avenue, and that would have been a lot closer to my apartment.
I also believe they might have extended it further...it would only be a couple more miles to reach LaGuardia Airport...offering a quick way to reach anywhere in the city via subway. And since the junction with that line and the Queens Blvd. line can go in either direction, it would have been easy to run the subway over the new line later built for the Air Train to JFK airport, as well...
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

Welcome on board! Wink

Greatly appreciate your comments on the SIRT operating into Brooklyn; you brought up a good point about the ICC, etc.

The SIRT men, up until the MTA takeover in 1971, were, of course, all B&O "railroad men" (i.e. employed by a Class One road, with "Tee-Yay" employees were civil service)

As I had said, it would have been interesting to see if SIRT crews brought their trains into Manhattan, or a "crew change" (most likely at 59th St., Brooklyn) would have become standard operating procedure.

Thanks for presenting the idea of the old IND World's Fair line (had it survived after the Fair) being extended further out to LaGuardia; THIS, then, would have been a TRUE "train to the plane", unlike the old, 1970's "Train To The Plane", which, of course, involved a bus transfer.

Actually, there WAS a way to reach LaGuardia by rail, at one time in the distant past; I've seen photos of B&QT streetcars operating a stone's throw away from the airport, with the AMERICAN AIRLINES hangers just a block or two away!

It is interesting to recall, also, that, the postcript to the 1940 unification came about in the form of the long-awaited IND connection from Church Avenue to the BMT's elevated line at Ditmas Ave, which opened in 1954.

Of course, there was no longer a need to "recapture", for the subway had been one unified system since 1940.

Also, as I had mentioned early, plans to operate subway trains over the LIRR out to the Rockaways went back as far as the early 1930's; the plan was always for the City to purchase and utilize the LIRR row, even way back when the IND's Fulton St. line was only a dotted line on the maps.........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This rare 1930's photo shows the Rockaway Park station, as it appeared when it was still serving LIRR MU trains; remarkably, the station looks much the same today, now serving MTA straphangers.......

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?58012

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This nostalgic 1966 photo shows a train of prewar IND cars ("Arnines") at Mott Avenue/Far Rockaway; note the train carrying a "HH" designation.

The old "HH" designation had been, between 1936 and 1946, used by the shuttle trains running between Hoyt-Schemerhorn and Court St. (today's Transit Museum).......

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2322

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More thoughts on the aborted Second Avenue "Stubway".......

I, personally, indeed like to imagine the SAS system as being known as the "IND 2nd Avenue Subway", linking the Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens, following the general "patterns" of the earlier IND lines.

In this scenario, let us say that the SAS had been built as a "full-fledged" subway system; 2nd Avenue trains would terminate/start at Euclid Avenue, which, under this scenario, had been built with six tracks, instead of the present four.

Upon leaving Euclid, 2nd Avenue trains would proceed towards Van Siclen Avenue; here, between Van Siclen and Liberty Avenue, 2nd Avenue trains would branch off, and proceed towards Manhattan along a new line with several stations enroute to downtown Brooklyn.

A new transfer station would have been built below the BMT's De Kalb Avenue complex, allowing passengers to transfer to several lines.

Via a new set of East River tubes, 2nd Avenue trains would have then proceeded up the East Side of Manhattan, totally replacing the 2nd Avenue elevated.

Making local and express stops, the trains heading for Queens would veer east in the vicinity of 50th St., and then proceed via a new set of tubes; this new trunk line would have been useful to riders not near either the 8th or 6th Avenue IND stations.

Trains destined for upper Manhattan and the Bronx would have continued northwards (via a flying junction near 50th St.), and continued to a new transfer station built beneath the IND's 205th St. station.

In this (elaborate!) scenario, I envision 2nd Avenue trains terminating near the Westchester border..........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love this classic "old and new" photo, taken at Howard Beach, back in 1978.

On the right, is a train of R-46's running on the long-defunct JFK Express ("The Train To The Plane"); on the left is a train of thirty year-old R-10's, signed for the "CC".

Look closely at the monitor roof on the R-10; this type of roof was already quite dated when the R-10's hit the rails in 1948/1949 (ditto, the IRT R-12/14's).

Look closely at photos showing the old H&M/PATH "Black" cars (classes "B" through "J") and the IRT's 1938 World's Fair cars; their roofs are virtually identical to those used on the R-10's, which, interestingly, were also the last IND cars built to require the conductor to "slap the caps" between cars, a time-honored "Noo Yawk" subway tradition!

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2426

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two other links of interest........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IND_Fulton_Street_Line

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockaway_Park_Shuttle
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockaway Park yard, 1976.

The R-32 "Brightliners" (just recently retired) are all signed for the "CC"; one year earlier, prewar IND cars were in use on the line (I best remember the "CC" as a rush-hour only line, terminating at Hudson Terminal/WTC downtown; I last rode the prewar IND cars on this line in 1975)

Interestingly, note that the R-32 at center is still sporting "traditional"-style roller curtains......

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?4705

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 1979, we see a train of restored 1925 "TRIPLEX" cars on a fan trip, running on the Rockaway line.

These massive, hulking articulated brutes, along with the legendary "Standards", were, indeed, the undisputed workhorses of the BMT for decades.

The TRIPLEX units were retired in 1965, while the Standards continued in service until 1969.

Both the TRIPLEX and the STANDARD practically shouted out "BMT!" Wink

(I'm sure glad Mom and I rode both types when I was a kid, many eons ago!) Very Happy

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24057

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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N4 Jamaica




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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding streetcars to LaGuardia Airport, buses replaced that service in August of 1949. Dad and I rode it at least once in its later years. The turnback was at the north end of the 94th Street bridge over the Grand Central Parkway. There are aerial views of that region from 1924, 1951, and later at NYCity Map DoiTT.
---
It is quite obvious that the 94th Street bridge was (after 1951) rebuilt slightly to the east of the one the trolleys used. Bob Moses put the trolley on the bridge, surprisingly. I have no idea how the route served North Beach. We got off the Peter Witt and hiked to the ten-cent observation deck at the new airport. I think the roller sign said North Beach.
---
I recall a two-block stretch of private right of way on that car line, but that does not match what I see on maps.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe:

In many areas of Brooklyn (both built up and more rural) there were quite a few areas where streetcars utilized private ROW.

There were also, of course, many points were trolley riders could transfer to either subway or elevated lines (or both)

The great Stan Fischler fondly recalled the NoRTONS POINT streetcar line, which ran on private ROW, through folks' backyards!

The NOSTRAND car line, at one point, also utilized private ROW.

After BMT elevated service ended over the Brooklyn Bridge in 1944, the B&QT streetcars were shifted over to the former elevated tracks, to allow for an additional vehicular lane in each direction; now, the streetcars, for the first time, used private ROW across the span (streetcar service over the Bridge lasted until 1950.

Also, recall the B&QT streetcar lines that utilized private ROW over the "Willy B" until the late 1940's, terminating at the underground trolley terminal at Delancey St.

Several streetcar routes used this terminal, including:

TOMPKINS

SUMNER-SACKETT

UTICA-REID

None of the routes using PCC's used this terminal; in fact, the only time a PCC would be seen at Delancey Street was when one was chartered for a fan trip.

Regarding the subways, it's important to remember that the INDEPENDENT was, in a strong sense, the first MODERN subway in New York.

The Victorian INTERBOROUGH operated the antiquated Manhattan elevated lines, as well as the (IRT) subway; the BRT/BMT was a vast conglomeration of streetcars, elevated lines, and subways.

The INDEPENDENT, on the other hand, was strictly SUBWAY.........

"NYO"
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