BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Another thought........

It is also important to remember how "high-falutin'" 5th Avenue has always been, especially in the days of Victorian mansions, high-rent brownstones, and exclusive shops.

So "tony" was the ritzy, glitzy thoroughfare, there were NO noisy, rattling elevated trains above the street, not were there any subway trains rumbling beneath.

When one thinks about it, it IS a bit surprising that lowly streetcars were even allowed to CROSS the glitzy avenue!

Then, too, there were (and still are) those of "well-to-do" status who would not be caught dead aboard a city bus....OR a subway!

Case in point:

When I worked on "The Street" from 1979 through early 2003, there was a middle-aged (this was back in the early 80's) stockbroker whose family had always been VERY socially prominent (they lived on upper 5th for many years)......to say this guy was a "snob" is indeed an understatement.

I once heard him talking to another broker, and he caustically remarked that no one in his family was ever that destitute that they had to resort to either taking the subways OR the bus (if the limo was in the shop, a humble taxi was, indeed, the LAST resort!)

For Your's Truly, imagining someone who lived in Manhattan for nearly sixty years and who NEVER ONCE ever rode the subway (or a bus) is STILL a difficult issue to ponder, without a doubt.

Thank God I was raised in an average, middle class (for that time) family; what great transit-related fun I would have missed, had I been born into a "silver spoon in the mouth", uppity, wealthy family!

(Thanks, Mom and Dad!)

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

#8706 at Frankfort and William, 1972.

There are quite a few of the distinctive Westinghouse "WHITEWAY" street lamps in this view........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1281

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

Regarding signs of yesterday (roller curtains and street signs):

Here again, when looking at vintage bus photos, far too many take these photos at "face value" only.

If they truly study these photos, they can easily see the many changes over the years (subtle or otherwise) in regards to bus signs, street signs, and store signage.

Too, look at how much street lights and traffic signals have changed over the years............"pedestal" traffic signals with only two aspects, incandescent, florescent, mercury vapor, sodium street lighting.....the list of changes over the decades literally goes on and on.

Also, regarding the many changes bus roller curtains over the years, it would seem that photos showing the roller sign departments at different New York depots are sadly lacking (I have have seen numerous such vintage photos from London, however)

Again, when it comes to vintage bus photos, though the BUS, is, of course, the FOCAL POINT of the photo, do not ignore the surrounding scene......there is so much of historical interest to be savored.....

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

A late 1950's lineup of SURFACE buses, near Yankee Stadium (all but one bus sports the classic ST paint)

The 1955 photo date is incorrect; look on the right at the tail-finned taxi; it is clearly a CHRYSLER product, and would date to about 1957 or 1958 (also, note the classic VW "Beetle"!)

Note also the ornate incandescent street lamps, once so commonplace in New York and many other cities for many years.

Of interest also is that no traffic signals are visible, despite this being a very busy intersection........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?4008

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Undated photo of a postwar ST Twin Coach:

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1551

A few quick questions:

1: Was this a lone "demo" assigned to ST, or did other postwar TWINS operate?

2: The BoT ordered TWINS 1400-1524, 1525-1575, 1700-1829; I am curious as to why the TWINS seemed to be all based in Brooklyn (I know that, at the time, both diesel buses and trolley coaches were replacing the B&QT streetcars at that time)

Some cities, like Chicago, operated large fleets of postwar TWINS; those in New York were clearly in the minority, and did not last all that long in service.......

"NYO"

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

A few postwar TWIN photos........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3999

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?4001

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?4007

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?4008

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3992

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Regarding ST Twin Coaches........

I took out my copy of "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES" (Guy E. Martin) to see if there was a photo of a TWIN running on an ST line; plenty of photos of Old Looks, MACKS, and a few WHITES, but none depicting a postwar TWIN.

NOT surprisingly, in this chapter, there is ONE photo of a Fishbowl (#3208) holding down a #31 run.

Caption says: "......the only GM New Look buses to operate on SURFACE TRANSIT were never red (caption also states they were painted green and cream, this, of course, we already know)

Here, it also states that ".....with only 50 New Looks assigned to SURFACE, Route #31 made extensive use of them....."

The only postwar TWINS shown in this book were units which operated in Queens.....

"NYO"

[MaBSTOA 15]

The Surface Twin was a demo and wound up at Westchester Street Transportation

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

From "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT SYSTEM BUS & TROLLEY COACH FLEET" (Greller).....

According to a table ("MANHATTAN SURFACE LINES") under "BUS DEPOTS, CIRCA JULY, 1960", 158 buses were based in Manhattan

One depot was then located in Manhattan (E. 100th St. garage)

Two routes caught my eye in particular: "M/13A"; according to this table, only three buses were required daily.

The "M/11" required only six buses.

To me, this seems to be a small amount of buses, even for a lightly-traveled line..........

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Though I've used both of these nostalgic (and busy!) old photos elsewhere in other threads, they are too good not to post here again.

These bustling long, long ago scenes were taken at West Farms, and also, at Southern Boulevard and Westchester Avenue..........imagine, being able to go back in time and see and hear the sweet sounds of "Noo Yawk" transit, many ages ago.......

Something for everyone, here!

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?116553

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?116824

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B:

I'd also love to see an intinerary like that one; once again, it would provide for us a more detailed "capsule", if you will, regarding the routes of that era, and what depots that those routes (and what buses) were based out of.

Once again, this is why a good, solid work on MaBSTOA (including a "prequel" of NYO and FACCO. into the last days) is needed.

Even though both yourself and our friend MaBSTOA 15 are walking encyclopedias on the City's bus operations (buses, signage, depots, etc.) we STILL have the need for a good, definitive work on MaBSTOA.

Regarding the Ogden FACCo. book, I gladly would have shelled out a few bucks more for the work if he detailed the Company right to the end, AND also devoted at least several pages to the New Looks.

The old saying goes: "If you're going to play the game, it's important to get to know all the players."

This holds especially true for the study of historic bus operations in the City, especially Manhattan and the Bronx......

"NYO"