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The "Other" New Look
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7056
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JFK, back in the days when NATIONAL AIRLINES and Flex New Looks were still with us.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1939

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7056
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

#9022, just having crossed the Grand Avenue Bridge, 1981.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1943

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7056
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: The "Other" New Look Reply with quote

frankie wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Fellows:

Ever notice how when many bus fans here another mention "New Look", they, almost, to the last man, think of a GM product (I will admit that I am VERY guilty of this!) Shocked

IMHO, it seems as though the Flex New Look seemed to me (at least to some) a "knockoff" of GM's famed New Look.

"NYO"


I never considered the Flxibles as "new looks". A bit of a misnomer since it's not really replacing a Flxible "old look" as GM did. These are really considered first generation buses even though the Flxible name shared the Twin Coach badges back when it absorbed Twin Coach. Those coaches were actually Twin Coaches in nature - even Chicago's #8499 when the front clip was replaced with the new clip. The original first generation Flxibles continued using the duel badges before using only the Flxible name sometime after 1962.

Frankie


Frankie:

Good post! Wink

It's funny, as I said earlier, that many think of a GMC when they hear a "New Look" mentioned;though, though i will admit that I refer to the Flex buses as "New Looks", I cannot help thinking that the GMC was indeed THE "New Look".

Recall, also, that the GM New Look hoopla and glitz began in 1959, two years before the first "New Look" Flxibles began to appear; interestingly, the first Flxible in the full "New Look" style was CTA #8500, delivered in 1961

For several years, the buses were marketed with the name "Flxible-Twin Coach"..........

"NYO"

(info source: "THE BUS WORLD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF BUSES", Ed Stauss)
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 53
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Here's a few more vintage MABSTOA scenes.....

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3244

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3245

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3246

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

The 'E 98 ST' sign on that first pic would date to c.1965. Those were the ones where the numbers were not positioned the same way on either side (either towards the 'E' or 'W' on one side, or the 'ST' on the other) - and 'ST' in 2" Highway Gothic D (as opposed to 3" Highway Gothic C).
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 53
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The saga of Flxible's "New Look" equivalents in New York started in 1961 when Fifth Avenue Coach Lines took on a demonstration bus, 100, that traversed a few bus routes including the 4 - Fifth and Fort Washington Avenues, 5 - Fifth Avenue-Riverside Drive and 10 - Eighth Avenue and Central Park West lines; the color scheme (and side passenger windows) matched what was on the first Flx's ordered by the Chicago Transit Authority. By this time FACL was in precarious shape financially and otherwise, in part due to a hostile takeover bid by a certain Harry Weinberg, so they neither purchased that bus nor placed an order for future Flx's. A few pics are below (one of which shows they too originally had the rear windows as 3-piece).


facl-100-rt-4.jpg
 Description:
FACL #100 - Front Right (on Rt. 4)
(For educational purposes only)
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facl-100-rt-4.jpg



facl-100-rt-10.jpg
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FACL #100 - Front Left
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facl-100-rt-10.jpg



facl-100-rear.jpg
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FACL #100 - Rear
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facl-100-rear.jpg


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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Round 2 was in 1963 when the TA took on another Flx demo bus, #200, painted blue and running on key routes of theirs such as M-3 - 49th-50th Streets Crosstown and Q44 - Main Street. (This bus later went to Los Angeles.)

In the wake of that - and Triboro Coach's decision to purchase Flx's - the TA placed its first order in 1964, which was also the first of two straight purchases of new equipment (the other being in 1965-66) where orders were split between Flxible and General Motors (which continued to build new New Looks for MaBSTOA). First, 5001-5165 which (along with GM-built OA 5201-5525) were the last that came from the factory with the rear windows as 3-piece (a few buses, including museum #5117, were converted to 4-piece retroactively - the lighter frame in the center, as opposed to the dark frame for the rest of the rear window, was the giveaway); then, the next year, 5601-5790 which (in conjunction with OA 6401-6900) were the first where the rear windows were built from the onset as 4-piece. Unlike the OA buses which were well represented in Manhattan and the Bronx, the TA's Flx's for the most part were confined to the three other outer boroughs (Staten Island inclusive), only going into "OA" territory via Queens' Q44 and Brooklyn's B15 and/or B63. (One individual swore one of the 5000's did time for awhile on the M-15 - First and Second Avenues line, but that may have been on temporary loan to their Manhattan Bus Division depot on 126th Street.) Hence I see those Flx's as the equivalent of off-off-Broadway, roadshow or dinner theatre, while the GM's were the big time - Broadway (a few key routes, such as #10 and M-104, showing off those newies on that said thoroughfare, thus the metaphor in this case being literal).

Then we get to the 1969-70 order to TA (4000-4202) and, for the first time, MaBSTOA (4600-4727) - the latter originally assigned to two of the Bronx depots, only penetrating Manhattan via certain routes that came out of the Kingsbridge (i.e. Bx12) and West Farms (such as Bx29) depots. 4721-4727 were transferred in 1974 to Hudson Depot in Manhattan where they became mainstays of such routes as M11 and M16 for years to come. Other OA buses of this order would reach other Manhattan depots (such as 132nd Street and 54th Street) in later years. It is also the latter order for which we saw the "green" livery within the Bronx and upper Manhattan.

And then there's the 1974-77 period where every "New Look" ordered was only from Flxible.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 53
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would also appear that this pic would have shown #100 on the #10 route; this appears to have been taken at 110th Street/Cathedral Parkway/Central Park North along Frederick Douglass Circle.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

OUTSTANDING collection of photos!!!!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Also, greatly appreciate your taking the time to post so much "in depth" statistics on both the buses and their routes; again, and I have said this before a number of times, you and our other resident New York bus expert MaBATOA 15 would do "Noo Yawk" bus historians/enthusiasts a HUGE favor and work together on a photo history book on MABSTOA.....such a work (accurate, concise, and LOADED with vintage photos, of course!) has been sorely needed for many years now.

Again, regarding Mr. Ogden's FACCo. book; there is (as we know) ONE lone GM New Look photo, and NOTHING at all showing this Flxible demo unit.

As I have said earlier, it was almost as though the author (for whatever reason) didn't think anything beyond the Old Looks was a TRUE FACCo. bus.

On a sidenote (this comes from the book "WELCOME ABOARD THE GM NEW LOOK BUS", McKane/Squier) here is an interesting bit of trivia:

"..........CTA New Look #8600 was part of a group of 150 Flxible New Looks that were purchased in conjunction with 150 GM's for side-by-side-comparison...." THIS must have been interesting, to say the least!)

The CTA, as we know, was a HUGE operator of FAGEOL/TWIN COACHES, this, of course, set the stage for CTA's favoring Flex coaches over GM; in fact, CTA continued to favor Flxibles until1972, when the CTA recieved a massive number of GM T8H-5307A's, followed by additional large orders in 1974 and 1976......"

Again, greatly appreciate your sharing both great photos and detailed information..... Wink

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Layover at St. George, 1977........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1938

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay & Willoughby (undated)........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1950

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hylan & Montreal, 1978........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1958

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flex #9000 strikes a classic pose at the Richmond Avenue Loop, back in 1977.......

http;//bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1942

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 53
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Again, regarding Mr. Ogden's FACCo. book; there is (as we know) ONE lone GM New Look photo, and NOTHING at all showing this Flxible demo unit.

As I have said earlier, it was almost as though the author (for whatever reason) didn't think anything beyond the Old Looks was a TRUE FACCo. bus.

And as I've also said, it's as if he thought Fifth Avenue Coach Lines as constituted from 1956 on - sprinkled as it was with New York City Omnibus routes (plus, after the end of '56, the Surface Transit network) - wasn't "TRUE FACCo," period.

At the very least, there should be a book of the Fifth Avenue Coach Lines/Surface Transit bus roster from the 1956-62 period, as well as the corporate history thereof.


Last edited by W.B. Fishbowl on Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, of those last two pics in my post of those three shots - can anyone say with certainty where those were taken? I'm wagering around Harlem . . .
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Again, regarding Mr. Ogden's FACCo. book; there is (as we know) ONE lone GM New Look photo, and NOTHING at all showing this Flxible demo unit.

As I have said earlier, it was almost as though the author (for whatever reason) didn't think anything beyond the Old Looks was a TRUE FACCo. bus.

And as I've also said, it's as if he thought Fifth Avenue Coach Lines as constituted from 1956 on - sprinkled as it was with New York City Omnibus routes (plus, after the end of '56, the Surface Transit network) - wasn't "TRUE FACCo," period.

At the very least, there should be a book of the Fifth Avenue Coach Lines/Surface Transit bus roster from the 1956-62 period, as well as the corporate history thereof.


W.b.:

Again, I agree 100%.

The only other book on New York buses that I have in my library is Guy E. Martin's "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES"; in this book, at least Fishbowls/New Looks received good coverage.

There are (at least!) TWO FACCo Fishbowl photos here (#'s 4 and 3110); however, even here, I've noticed that there are only a few Flex photos in the book, while GM New Look photos are many.

Oddly, though there are a number of GM photos showing the buses wearing the classic "TEE-AY" green of the 60's, there are no photos showing the Flex New Looks in green (or two-tone blue, for that matter).

The few Flex New Look photos in the book show buses operated by QUEENS TRANSIT, GREEN BUS, TRIBORO, and MABSTOA (the latter photo shows #7341 sporting the blue/white scheme).....

"NYO"
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