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Club Transport, Surface Transit, TARS, etc.......
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rust In Pieces, old friend....you may be gone, but never forgotten....... Crying or Very sad

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ever wonder what an ex-SURFACE bus (MACK) would have looked like if sent overseas for further service? Wink

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/167407311118822235/
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error

Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Ever wonder what an ex-SURFACE bus (MACK) would have looked like if sent overseas for further service? Wink

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/167407311118822235/

Apparently, the maker of that bus, Scania, had a relationship with Mack that lasted for decades.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Ever wonder what an ex-SURFACE bus (MACK) would have looked like if sent overseas for further service? Wink

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/167407311118822235/

Apparently, the maker of that bus, Scania, had a relationship with Mack that lasted for decades.


W.B.:

In "MACK BUSES: 1900-1960" (Eckart) there is a photo (b/w) of a MACK C-50DT destined for Sweden.

The caption reads:

"No, the negative is not reversed. This is a 1949 prototype C50DT with right-hand drive, for export to Sweden, equipped with extra-wide front doors....."

The photo on the next page shows another C50DT, this one a FACCo bus (#2475); according to the caption, 500 of these buses went to New York between 1950 and 1951.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recall, also, the links I posted elsewhere a few weeks back, of Soviet YELLOW Old Look-style trolleybuses, which also carried a red and cream paint scheme that was quite similar to SURFACE buses......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SURFACE Fishbowls......

We already know that SURFACE operated 50 TDH-5301's.

Two questions regarding these buses:

Fifty were ordered; did SURFACE plan to buy more Fishbowls in the future?

Also, 50 buses were ordered; was a like number of older buses retired upon their entry into service?

I'm guessing it was the oldest buses (such as the TD-4506/4507's, or MACK C-45-DT's) that were replaced by the new Fishbowls.....

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
SURFACE Fishbowls......

We already know that SURFACE operated 50 TDH-5301's.

Two questions regarding these buses:

Fifty were ordered; did SURFACE plan to buy more Fishbowls in the future?

Also, 50 buses were ordered; was a like number of older buses retired upon their entry into service?

I'm guessing it was the oldest buses (such as the TD-4506/4507's, or MACK C-45-DT's) that were replaced by the new Fishbowls.....

"NYO"

Those 50 - 3161-3210 - sequentially followed Fifth Avenue Coach Lines' 3111-3160 (the first 25 of which went to FACO Division depots at 132d Street and Jackson Heights; the last 25 to NYCO Division garages). I surmise if any Surfaces were retired upon the arrival of those 50 ST Fishbowls, it would've been the worst and most dilapidated to the point of beyond repair.

I reckon that if any purchases were in the future under FACL/ST purview, there would have been at least one order to Flxible (which had the demo '100' on FACO 4 and 5 and NYCO 10 routes) to serve the "lesser" Surface routes, especially those in the Bronx, as well as FACO Division's Route 16 in Queens (which didn't get newer Fishbowls until after the move to 54th Street depot in 1964 and the "new blood" of 1964-65 MaBSTOA Fishbowls).

But unfortunately, FACL/ST's attentions were diverted - and their resources wiped out - by a combo of both operating costs and the attempt to head off Harry Weinberg's hostile takeover which finally occurred in February 1962 - and made another strike inevitable (the one which finally knocked FACL and ST out of the running in terms of operating bus routes in Manhattan and the Bronx and brought MaBSTOA into the picture). Those 120 Fishbowls (the combined FACL/ST order of November 1960, plus the 10 A/C and 10 non-A/C's ordered for FACL in February) weren't exactly cheap. Although on both sides they differed significantly from the 'Tee-Yay's' lot, not only on the side window which as FACL and ST had it was an emergency exit, but also on how many windows were on the rear exit.

The question for post-1960 FACL and ST should then be, what if Harry Weinberg hadn't made his particular machinations?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

As always, greatly appreciate your taking the time to post this interesting and detailed historical information.

When you mentioned Flxible, it brought to mind an image I had not, previously, thought of....that is, a SURFACE "Dangerfield" (of course, when SURFACE was still operating, it would still be a while before the first "Dangerfields" entered "Tee-Yay" and MaBSTOA service.

Things were, indeed, most certainly NOT dull during the 1960's, regarding bus operations, especially in Manhattan, especially when it involved changing two-way streets to one-way, route changes, etc.

ONE thing was positive about SURFACE disappearing from the streets when it did: it was that their buses were not around to witness the dark and dangerous days of the South Bronx of the 1970's and 1980's, especially after the 3rd Avenue El ceased operations......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....had SURFACE had still been in existence in the mid-1960's, it would have been interesting to see if they would have purchased additional Fishbowls, or, went to FLXIBLE and purchased "Dangerfields".

Given how far downhill the South Bronx went in the 1970's, it is safe to assume that these buses would not have been receiving the best of TLC, especially given the fact that they'd be enduring rough conditions during their runs. Sad

Of course, upholstered seating would have indeed been out of favor (too, would these buses have been air-conditioned?)

Alas, we can only speculate today, at best.....

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
.....had SURFACE had still been in existence in the mid-1960's, it would have been interesting to see if they would have purchased additional Fishbowls, or, went to FLXIBLE and purchased "Dangerfields".

Given how far downhill the South Bronx went in the 1970's, it is safe to assume that these buses would not have been receiving the best of TLC, especially given the fact that they'd be enduring rough conditions during their runs. Sad

Of course, upholstered seating would have indeed been out of favor (too, would these buses have been air-conditioned?)

Alas, we can only speculate today, at best.....

"NYO"

Especially since Surface's fleet in general looked like they had no TLC whatsoever, a byproduct of their 1949-56 bankruptcy. They were so bad that after FACL took over, a few really unfixable ones were junked and surplus FACCo and NYCO rolling stock put in to replace them (including the infamous FACCo Macks ordered for the Jackson Heights and Elmhurst lines). And this was before MaBSTOA entered into the picture.

I see what you mean by the vintage Surface stock out of the picture by the time the South Bronx was burning. It would have been like rubbing salt on an old wound. I saw a few of the '60 FACL/ST stock, by 1972, with MaBSTOA color scheme, scribbled with graffiti. All were at Kingsbridge depot by then. Like I said about the Bronx being to MaBSTOA what Staten Island was to the 'Tee-Yay' - where the oldest buses went to die.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Interesting views; thanks for sharing.

Here in "Joisey", the very last Old Looks did not vanish until 1986; one can only imagine what Old Looks would have looked like by the 1970's, if they were then still being used by MaBSTOA.

It would have been interesting, especially back in the late SURFACE/early MaBSTOA era, to see what percentage of South Bronx residents rode the buses and what percentage utilized the 3rd Avenue El trains.

It would seem, that, for speed, the El had the advantage over the buses, especially if a rider was traveling into Manhattan.

The buses, on the other hand, would have been the choice for "short hops".

Interesting, also, in that I've heard that, in many areas, the elevateds were regarded as "blights", and it was thought that the quality of life would improve with their demolition.

Well, tell that to da South Bronx, post-1973 El abandonment........

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
.

Interesting, also, in that I've heard that, in many areas, the elevateds were regarded as "blights", and it was thought that the quality of life would improve with their demolition.

Well, tell that to da South Bronx, post-1973 El abandonment........

"NYO"


Or...how about Jamaica since the J train elevated was torn down on Jamaica Avenue, and moved under Archer Avenue?

Back in the '60's, we had a Gertz, a May's, and a Macy's department store in downtown Jamaica...what type of stores remain there now?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
.

Interesting, also, in that I've heard that, in many areas, the elevateds were regarded as "blights", and it was thought that the quality of life would improve with their demolition.

Well, tell that to da South Bronx, post-1973 El abandonment........

"NYO"


Or...how about Jamaica since the J train elevated was torn down on Jamaica Avenue, and moved under Archer Avenue?

Back in the '60's, we had a Gertz, a May's, and a Macy's department store in downtown Jamaica...what type of stores remain there now?


traildriver:

You hit the nail right on the head! Wink

I've read that many business owners along the old Jamaica El thought it a "blight" and that the "quality of life" would improve AFTER the El was taken down....hmmmmmmmm.

Strange, too, when you recall that, on the Manhattan section of the 3rd Avenue El, only wooden El cars operated; however, on the Bronx section, steel subway trains (Lo-V's/R-12 types) operated.

The prewar IRT cars were retired in 1969, while the 1948-era R-12's ran on the El until all service ended in 1973.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parsons & Jamaica, 1980.

For the time being, the old El columns still remain, silently recalling better days.

Was the "quality of life" improved by the removal of the spindly old elevated and its noisy procession of subway trains? Confused

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154291

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153930

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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