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Two on FACC.........
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:27 pm    Post subject: Two on FACC......... Reply with quote

Fellows:

Just two inquiries:

1: Had WW2 not intervened, do you think that FACCo would have replaced their double-deck fleet with new single-deck Yellows by the mid-1940's, or possibly earlier?

2: It seems that few photos exist showing FACCo's operations in Queens (ROUTE #15/JACKSON HEIGHTS); how has this route evolved since the FACCo years?

If MTA buses run on this former FACCo. route today, what route # is it?

Thanks in advance for your input.....

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Two on FACC......... Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Fellows:

Just two inquiries:

1: Had WW2 not intervened, do you think that FACCo would have replaced their double-deck fleet with new single-deck Yellows by the mid-1940's, or possibly earlier?

2: It seems that few photos exist showing FACCo's operations in Queens (ROUTE #15/JACKSON HEIGHTS); how has this route evolved since the FACCo years?

If MTA buses run on this former FACCo. route today, what route # is it?

Thanks in advance for your input.....

"NYO"

Re. #1: It's probable if not possible. But the war and its end did bring up cost issues relating to such operations, for sure.

#2. #15, effective Dec. 22, 1963, was stationed out of the same 54th Street depot as ex-NYCO #15 - 23rd Street Crosstown. The ex-FACCo 15, starting around the time the first MaBSTOA T6H-5309A's arrived in January 1973, was branded as QM15 (while the Elmhurst Crosstown line was designated QM16), then on July 1, 1974 was renumbered M32 (as the QM15 designation duplicated Green Bus Lines' Lindenwood-to-Manhattan express route number), and again as Q32 in March 1989. Most pics from '15' days were taken in Manhattan, and mainly TDH-5303's with '15 to NORTHERN BLVD' or '15 to 25 ST' front roll signs, taken after the late 1960's.

Even rarer are pics of the 16 - Elmhurst Crosstown in action, especially the 1973-74 period where some 5303's had front roll signs indicating 'QM16' (which route number duplicated that of GBL's Rockaway Park-Manhattan express) and again after the same 1974 day as Q89, up to its 1988 elimination.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B:

This is just what I wanted to know....thanks! Wink

Even though the "Queen Mary" buses eliminated the need for conductors, there were still other factors that made the new single-deck buses far more appealing to the Company (certainly, dwell time would be cut with single deck buses, and I would also imagine that they were also easier to handle, especially when the streets were slippery)

On a related note, I have only seen one photo of a FACCo. bus operating on route #12 (in this photo, a bus is seen operating on Burnside Avenue in the book "NEW YORK FIFTH AVENUE COACH COMPANY" by Oliver J. Ogden)

As the line operated for four years, between 1924 and 1928, it is no surprise at all that photos of buses on this line are rarer than the proverbial hen's tooth.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another interesting item to consider is that when the FACCo. disappeared, it was sort of a hint of what was to come in future decades.

TRIBORO, STEINWAY, QUEEN SURFACE, GREEN BUS.........today, none of these once-familiar companies exists, with their operations taken over by the MTA.

Personally, I never thought the day would come when the fancy "MABSTOA" script emblazoned on the buses would disappear; I really miss that era of "individuality" among New York's bus operators........

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
This is just what I wanted to know....thanks! Wink

Even though the "Queen Mary" buses eliminated the need for conductors, there were still other factors that made the new single-deck buses far more appealing to the Company (certainly, dwell time would be cut with single deck buses, and I would also imagine that they were also easier to handle, especially when the streets were slippery)

On a related note, I have only seen one photo of a FACCo. bus operating on route #12 (in this photo, a bus is seen operating on Burnside Avenue in the book "NEW YORK FIFTH AVENUE COACH COMPANY" by Oliver J. Ogden)

As the line operated for four years, between 1924 and 1928, it is no surprise at all that photos of buses on this line are rarer than the proverbial hen's tooth.....

There is exactly one or two pics of experimental bus 2500 running on the very, very short-lived FACCo Route 22 - Fifth and Eighth Avenues via Riverside Drive that stopped at Penn Station that was launched in late 1940 and apparently was ended not long afterward - doubtless because part of the route duplicated that of "affiliate" NYCO Rt. 10. (Begs the question as to what FACCo Rt. 21 would have been.)
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Personally, I never thought the day would come when the fancy "MABSTOA" script emblazoned on the buses would disappear; I really miss that era of "individuality" among New York's bus operators........

Even that fancy "MaBSTOA" script was "all in the family," as the first TA "New Looks" between 1959 and 1966 (this includes the two Flxible orders) had equally fancy "NYCTA" script. But when all that disappeared, yeah, that was the beginning of the end . . . Rolling Eyes
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B:

Again, greatly appriciate your input!

One cannot help but wonder what today's Manhattan bus operations might have been like had FACCo. not vanished, but, instead, continued to operate as an independent company, much like GREEN BUS, TRIBORO, etc., until possibly the 1980's or 1990's.

IMHO, Mr. Ogden's book on the FACCo (though lavishly illustrated), should have had at least a short chapter on the demise of the Company, as well as its routes in the post Company years.

I also wish there was more coverage (and photos) of the New Looks.

The 1962 strike, I believe, was the final blow.......

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Avenue_Coach_Company
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
IMHO, Mr. Ogden's book on the FACCo (though lavishly illustrated), should have had at least a short chapter on the demise of the Company, as well as its routes in the post Company years.

I also wish there was more coverage (and photos) of the New Looks.

The 1962 strike, I believe, was the final blow.......

There were others before that:
- The death of longtime company president John E. McCarthy in 1960; his visionary ways are said to have gone with him, and his successor John A. Moreland, from what I read of his running of the company in old newspaper clippings, seemed to have merely trod water
- The hostile takeover by Harry Weinberg's consortium, half a month before the strike
Some would say that Fifth Avenue Coach Lines' late 1956 purchase of Surface Transit may have also been the beginning of the end. FACL also bemoaned how their (and corporate predecessor New York City Omnibus') profitability was adversely affected by the one-way conversions in Manhattan that, in FACCO's, NYCO's, ST's and FACL's time, took place between 1948 and 1960.
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Hart Bus



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO, Mr. Ogden's book on the FACCo (though lavishly illustrated), should have had at least a short chapter on the demise of the Company, as well as its routes in the post Company years.


The 1962 strike, I believe, was the final blow.......

"NYO"[/quote]

My thought exactly about the book. I once spoke to bus historian Eddie Crew and he concurred with me
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Again, appreciate your input...... Wink

Though, for us, the buses themselves were/are the main focus of any FACCo. history, I still feel that not enough has ever been published regarding to Company's financial/political workings, not to mention items regarding the 1962 strike.

I still feel that there is still much of interest to be told, even though several decades have since passed since the Company existed.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hart Bus wrote:
IMHO, Mr. Ogden's book on the FACCo (though lavishly illustrated), should have had at least a short chapter on the demise of the Company, as well as its routes in the post Company years.


The 1962 strike, I believe, was the final blow.......

"NYO"


My thought exactly about the book. I once spoke to bus historian Eddie Crew and he concurred with me[/quote]

Hart Bus:

I see we are in total agreement on this.

Though most people focus on the double deckers (and the Old Looks), there is still much lacking (photo and discussion-wise) regarding both the New Looks and internal Company workings.

The 1962 strike alone is more than worth a detailed article........

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am with ya' on the in-depth look on the FACL (and ST) New Looks that wasn't. Namely, which were the main depot assignments. I know quite a few were at 132nd Street (namely A/C #4, 3104 and 3135) where they were verified as running on the 4 and 5 routes along Fifth; a 1960 pic of 3110 handling the 2 - Fourth and Madison Avenues route (I presume they were still assigned out of 100th Street depot at that point), plus also on 16 - 34th Street Crosstown (from 54th Street); one post I read maintained that some 15 - Jackson Heights runs utilized the 5301's (but not 16 - Elmhurst Crosstown, which did not have any New Looks assigned until after 54th Street got their allotment of the 1964 group of 5303's). On the Surface Transit side, M-106 - 42nd Street Crosstown and Bx-31 - Southern Boulevard are confirmed to have run with those buses. A Nov. 2, 1960 article in The New York Times about the introduction of 3111-3210 into service mentioned that these newies were to run on 17 routes. I mentioned 5 from the FACL side and 2 from ST; can anyone with memories from the final 2 years of FACL's control of these routes advise as to the other 10?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

This is EXACTLY the type of information that I felt should have been included in the Ogden book; that there is only ONE New Look photo in the book (bus #4) speaks volumes, IMHO.

By this I mean that, for whatever reason, the New Looks were not on the "High Priority" list when it came to photo subjects for the work.

If only there could have been as in-depth photo coverage in the book on the New Looks as there was on the double-deckers and Old Looks!

Perhaps Mr. Ogden felt that pictures of New Looks were not as "historically valuable" to the Company's history, as were the older buses; here, I am only guessing, but, again, that is only one photo of a New Look in the entire book does indeed say something.

Just my opinion......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Random photos........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?854

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?845

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?846

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?844

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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