BusTalk Forum Index BusTalk
A Community Discussing Buses and Bus Operations Worldwide!
 
 BusTalk MainBusTalk Main FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups BusTalk GalleriesBusTalk Galleries   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Last FACC Old Looks/Fishbowls on 5th

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BusTalk Forum Index -> New York City Buses
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Last FACC Old Looks/Fishbowls on 5th Reply with quote

Fellows:

What series of Old Looks were last used on former FACC routes; when were the last replaced by Fishbowls? (on 5th Avenue routes)

Also, when did the last Fishbowls operate on former FACC routes?

Thanks in advance.....

"NYO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 241
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Last FACC Old Looks/Fishbowls on 5th Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Fellows:

What series of Old Looks were last used on former FACC routes; when were the last replaced by Fishbowls? (on 5th Avenue routes)

Also, when did the last Fishbowls operate on former FACC routes?

Thanks in advance.....

"NYO"

I.I.N.M., the last 'Old Looks' running on old FACCo routes along Fifth Avenue would've been the 1958-59 orders of TDH-5106's, with the protruding 'front sign box', retired around 1970 and/or shifted to NYCTA routes in Brooklyn and elsewhere to play out the rest of their days. (Although MaBSTOA received their first Flxibles with 4600-4727, none plied Manhattan streets until 1974 when seven went to Hudson depot.)

The only 'New Looks' a.k.a. 'Fishbowls' to have been ordered by FACL - the TDH-5301 1-10 (AC, renumbered 3211-3220 in 1963) and 3101-3210 - began to disappear from Fifth Avenue (and other ex-NYCO Division) routes around 1965, when all but the last five of the AC's were shifted to the Kingsbridge depot where they plied many a 'Bx-' route till 1973. (Initially, 3216-3220 were still at 132nd Street where they could be enjoyed by Fifth Avenue passengers, and indeed may've had a spin or two N/B on Madison or Sixth Avenue depending on which route they were assigned, up to the 1967 arrival of the A/C batwings after which the ten FACL A/C 'Fishbowls' did time on NYCTA routes in Brooklyn and Queens before being reunited with their brethren at KB around 1971.) Thereafter, the only 5301's in Manhattan were those on the five TA routes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Greatly appreciated the "in depth" response....... Wink

I am willing to wager that the average bus rider on any of the former FACCo routes has virtually no conception as to just how "historic" the routes they ride on truly are.

Then again, I have long felt that the old FACCo. was truly iconic, and indeed as much a part of New York as the subway or the Empire State Building.

I well recall those 5106's with those distinctive front sign boxes as a kid; those Old Looks were particularly handsome in my eyes..........

"NYO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 241
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They also probably have no idea that, for example, today's M1 route is actually a direct, 100% descendant of the city's first streetcar route along Fourth and Madison Avenues that was launched in 1832 by the New York and Harlem Railroad - and (since 2010) despite its SB route, from 135th to 8th Streets, traveling along the same path as the old FACCo Rt. 1 that was launched in 1886, but discontinued in 1962 upon the TWU strike that led to the end of FACL's run of the bulk of the city's bus routes (between its FACO and NYCO Divisions, as well as their Surface Transit subsidiary).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
They also probably have no idea that, for example, today's M1 route is actually a direct, 100% descendant of the city's first streetcar route along Fourth and Madison Avenues that was launched in 1832 by the New York and Harlem Railroad - and (since 2010) despite its SB route, from 135th to 8th Streets, traveling along the same path as the old FACCo Rt. 1 that was launched in 1886, but discontinued in 1962 upon the TWU strike that led to the end of FACL's run of the bulk of the city's bus routes (between its FACO and NYCO Divisions, as well as their Surface Transit subsidiary).


W.B.:

Exactly!

Here again, the general riding public generally have not the slightest idea (nor interest) of the rich history of not only the former FACCo. routes, but also, many of the city's subway lines. themselves rich in history and lore.

Imagine telling commuters today that the LIRR once crossed over the Williamsburg Bridge (joint BRT/LIRR service to the Rockaways) Shocked

Or telling them that, at one time, new subway cars (the BUDD R-11's) were designed with "germ killing" interior lighting! Shocked

As an aside, if another book on the history of FACCo. is ever published, it will provide or a more "in depth" coverage of the "modern" era, i.e. more photos and information on the Fishbowls, which few, except for the most die-hard enthusiasts, will associate with the famed company.......

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hart Bus



Age: 68
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 1114

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefullly the book will go up to and past the MABSTOA takeover which Ogden's book didn't do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 241
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think part of why the post-1960 era in FACL's history gets glossed over is at least twofold:
- By the time they got their 120 Fishbowls (the last 100 of which entered service on Nov. 1, 1960; the last 50 of that bunch, 3161-3210, allotted to Surface Transit), FACL had become a follower rather than a leader in terms of their bus rolling stock; the TA had preceded them in terms of who was first in ordering and then getting their Fishbowls (the TA's first, 1-190, had entered service in late 1959; FACL's A/C 1-10 and first ten non-A/C's, 3101-3110, had debuted in early 1960).
- FACL's (and Surface Transit's) president, John E. McCarthy, who had been the president of FACCo beginning in 1939, and also that year was named president and director of the New York City Omnibus Corporation (whose own history of bus routes, though maybe not as "prestigious" as Fifth Avenue's, is no less colorful and interesting), had died on June 15, 1960 following an operation at St. Clare's Hospital in Manhattan at age 65. He was replaced as president by John A. Moreland, who was ousted at the time Harry Weinberg (grr! grr!) seized control of FACL in mid-February 1962, setting in motion a chain of events that culminated in the MaBSTOA takeover.


Last edited by W.B. Fishbowl on Wed May 02, 2018 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hart Bus wrote:
Hopefullly the book will go up to and past the MABSTOA takeover which Ogden's book didn't do.


Agree 100%!

That would indeed make for a lot of great in-depth reading, not to mention seeing more "modern"-era buses that operated on ex=FACCo. routes.......

"NYO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
I think part of why the post-1960 era in FACL's history gets glossed over is at least twofold:
- By the time they got their 120 Fishbowls (the last 100 of which entered service on Nov. 1, 1960; the last 50 of that bunch, 3161-3210, allotted to Surface Transit), FACL had become a follower rather than a leader in terms of their bus rolling stock; the TA had preceded them in terms of who was first in ordering and then getting their Fishbowls (the TA's first, 1-190, had entered service in late 1959; FACL's A/C 1-10 and first ten non-A/C's, 3101-3110, had debuted in early 1960).
- FACL's (and Surface Transit's) president, John E. McCarthy, who had been the president of FACCo beginning in 1939, and by 1950 was also president of the New York City Omnibus Corporation (whose own history of bus routes, though maybe not as "prestigious" as Fifth Avenue's, is no less colorful and interesting), had died on June 15, 1960 following an operation at St. Clare's Hospital in Manhattan at age 65. He was replaced as president by John A. Moreland, who was ousted at the time Harry Weinberg (grr! grr!) seized control of FACL in mid-February 1962, setting in motion a chain of events that culminated in the MaBSTOA takeover.


W.B.:

Two good reasons why the post-1960 FACCo. history either gets glossed over, or ignored altogether.

I could be totally wrong, but I would guess that some bus enthusiasts have no interest at all in the later years of the company, once the last double deckers were retired.

On the other hand, the majority of bus enthusiasts (myself included) want to know all there is about the company, right up to and past its demise.

There is, I believe, many more interesting stories yet to be documented here.......

"NYO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 241
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
I could be totally wrong, but I would guess that some bus enthusiasts have no interest at all in the later years of the company, once the last double deckers were retired.

On the other hand, the majority of bus enthusiasts (myself included) want to know all there is about the company, right up to and past its demise.

There is, I believe, many more interesting stories yet to be documented here.......

I agree. But some bus enthusiasts also think it wasn't the same after the 1956 reorganization as Fifth Avenue Coach Lines, Inc., especially after the creation of the FACO and NYCO Divisions, and 'FIFTH AVENUE COACH LINES' emblazoned on the sides of buses traveling on ex-NYCO routes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Another reason why I would love to see a more "in depth" work published on FACCo. is that I feel it would also be a very worthy work, especially to those who think that the Company only operated double deckers, and nothing else.

I would like to see any new work on the Company detail not only the Company's operations and rosters, but also, the lineage that connects to today's MTA routes.

MABSTOA, also, more than deserves a good, readable, historically accurate write-up.........

"NYO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.........I would also love to see (in a new book on the FACCo.) a history that encompasses today's MTA routes (both ex-FACCo. and MABSTOA), including both photos and rosters.

I personally think such a detailed work would indeed fill a definitive void currently in the New York City bus book "library".........

"NYO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BusTalk Forum Index -> New York City Buses All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group