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Buses and the Puerto Rican Day Parade, then and now
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 4309
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5th Avenue Coach #2502 was another older coach in service during the Parade's early days......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show/?3383

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus this 1960 'Fishbowl', Fifth Avenue Coach Lines #3104 at Washington Square holding down the #5 around 1960-61:
https://farm9.static.flickr.com/8452/28503671103_2472796ea1.jpg
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

VERY NICE photo....never saw this one; appreciate your sharing here! Wink

As I had said previously, I always thought it odd that it is almost impossible to locate photos showing 5th Avenue Coach's New Looks; in Oliver J. Ogden's book on the company, there is only one photo showing a New Look.

Seems such pictures (IMHO) are scarcer than the proverbial hen's teeth; seems as though the enthusiasts back then were pretty much ignoring them.......just my thoughts......

"NYO"
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Work-weary 5th Avenue Coach Company #1700 (seen here in 1962) was still in revenue service during the Parade's early years.

The bus looks quite unadorned without the usual, bold "GO THE MOTOR COACH WAY" legend emblazoned above the windows.........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3387

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)


Regarding the photo of work-weary #1700 southbound on Ninth Avenue at 23rd Street, I am amazed at how battered it appears. I guess my memory of Fifth Avenue buses dates from premium service, 10-cent fare instead of the 5-cent fare paid on other companies. Is there a chance that 1700 began service on one of the other green operations on Manhattan? Because it does not have paired windows, I would date it from 1946 or so, but a reader might be able to provide the true date of delivery.
---
Old photos are marvelous! I thought those fluorescent-tube street lights were only on third Avenue, but here they are on Ninth. The buildings behind the bus no longer stand (according to Google Street View) and surprisingly the fire hydrant has been moved south and replaced. Often fire hydrants last through other changes in the scene. I wonder whether those fire escapes predate the construction of the Ninth Avenue el. Those buildings have been replaced.
---
Also interesting about the date 1962 is the lane painting. I bet Henry Barnes was responsible for that.
---
The date of the photo is March 10, 1962. Which parade was this bus avoiding? The New York Times of March 9, page 1, reports that the Board of Estimate had taken 38 Manhattan franchises from strikebound Fifth Avenue.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

N4:

Agreed!

Vintage photos like these are indeed "time machines"; they transport us back to a long-ago era that has long since vanished....invaluable research tools!

In browsing through Oliver J. Ogden's book on 5th Avenue Coach, I tried to locate a photo showing #1700, but did not come across any.

Also, strangely enough, I could not locate any photos at all showing buses (Old Looks) numbered in the 1700's; the lowest numbered Old Looks I saw in the book were in the 2200's.....I did not see any 5th Avenue Coach Old Looks numbered lower than the 2200's (all square-window GM's).

Perhaps someone here who is more "in the know" can help us out with this one.......

"NYO"

(*The oldest square-window Old Looks in the book were the 1946 TD/TDH-4507's, numbered in the 2200's)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

N4:

Here is a 1970 photo showing a retired square-windowed Old Look; note the number is #1605; perhaps 5th Avenue Coach later operated 1600/1700 series buses that were ex-ST?

I am only guessing a wild card guess, here......

"NYO"

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1547

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really out of my depth with regard to the Fifth Avenue affiliates that did not operate on Fifth Avenue. What I observed in my youth (age 8-10) were the new red-and-cream buses that replaced our favored TARS streetcars, and even then my memory is weak. Surface Transportation 1600's and 1700's were Macks, not GM's, and I doubt that Fifth Avenue (having bought out Surface) would mess up the numbering system. Someplace I once found a roster of Surface buses in the 1940's and 1950's. It's not complex, because Surface numbered the buses in consecutive order as they bought them. Or maybe Surface did not really own them, and perhaps Mack and GM arranged the financing of what looked to be purchases.
---
A later edit:
It's the site administrator who seven years ago put together such as list when I asked the same question in 2010!
Please see this informative thread that answered my questions the last time!
Link: HERE
.
Thanks again to dear Mr. Linsky and the Site Administrator!
Joe McMahon
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

N4:

I'm with you; the 5th Avenue Coach's history is indeed much more interesting than many realize (including yours truly!)

In "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES" (Guy E. Martin), it mentions 5th Avenue Coach purchasing ST in 1956, and setting up a subsidiary company, "ST Inc."

Perhaps #1700 (and #1605) was an ex-ST bus? (in Mr. Martin's book, I did see Old Looks (4507's) numbered in the 1500's.

I read what you said about 5th Avenue Coach's numbering system, but, again, I'm only tossing out a wild card guess on this.

Let us see what we shall see.......... Wink

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

N4 Jamaica wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Work-weary 5th Avenue Coach Company #1700 (seen here in 1962) was still in revenue service during the Parade's early years.

The bus looks quite unadorned without the usual, bold "GO THE MOTOR COACH WAY" legend emblazoned above the windows.........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3387

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)


Regarding the photo of work-weary #1700 southbound on Ninth Avenue at 23rd Street, I am amazed at how battered it appears. I guess my memory of Fifth Avenue buses dates from premium service, 10-cent fare instead of the 5-cent fare paid on other companies. Is there a chance that 1700 began service on one of the other green operations on Manhattan? Because it does not have paired windows, I would date it from 1946 or so, but a reader might be able to provide the true date of delivery.
---
Old photos are marvelous! I thought those fluorescent-tube street lights were only on third Avenue, but here they are on Ninth. The buildings behind the bus no longer stand (according to Google Street View) and surprisingly the fire hydrant has been moved south and replaced. Often fire hydrants last through other changes in the scene. I wonder whether those fire escapes predate the construction of the Ninth Avenue el. Those buildings have been replaced.
---
Also interesting about the date 1962 is the lane painting. I bet Henry Barnes was responsible for that.
---
The date of the photo is March 10, 1962. Which parade was this bus avoiding? The New York Times of March 9, page 1, reports that the Board of Estimate had taken 38 Manhattan franchises from strikebound Fifth Avenue.

1700 was an Old Look GM TD-4506 (serial #0401), built in April 1946 for the Madison Avenue Coach Company, which along with Eighth Avenue Coach Corporation was absorbed into and by their shared parent, New York City Omnibus Corporation, in 1951. I doubt this photo was March 10, 1962 because the strike against Fifth Avenue Coach Lines was still on and the city was working to seize all bus lines and FACL/ST properties. Maybe the year before that, or something. It was around 1960 that advertisement placeholders were put on the front, sides and back of the buses, hence the 'FIFTH AVENUE COACH LINES INC. OPERATOR' in a little corner on several lines below the emergency window rather than laid out on one line spaced out just below the passenger windows as in prior years. That pic was actually taken on Ninth between 50th and 51st Streets (the west block showing), and the route this oldie was holding down was today's M11. The buildings still exist, but many of them, especially towards 51st, were heavily remodeled.


Last edited by W.B. Fishbowl on Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B:

Again, appreciate your input; I totally neglected to include MADISON AVENUE COACH CO./NEW YORK OMNIBUS equipment; am glad you posted this here.

4507's are not mentioned, however, in Guy E. Martin's book (in the chapter on NYO); 4509's seemed to dominate (beginning in 1950), with older buses (YELLOW 718's and rebuilt 740's) being assigned to the crosstown, downtown runs, with the 4509's holding down the more more posh, longer avenue runs..........


"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYO square-window Old Looks......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3626

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1381 (*note the 5th Avenue Coach's "GO THE MOTOR COACH WAY" emblazoned on the dash)

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get back to the issue at hand . . .

This link has a B&W pic of one of the air-conditioned 'Fishbowls' ordered by FACL, #4 (later renumbered 3214 upon MaBSTOA's takeover in 1962), on the #5 route . . . and here is a color photo of the same bus in action. And in this pic, FACL Fishbowl 3123 running on #5 stands out in a sea of Old Looks in a snowstorm between late 1960 and early '62. These would have all been placed on different routes in the PR Day Parade in its early years.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

GREAT pictures.......especially love the one showing the lone New Look amid all the Old Looks...I'd give ANYTHING to go back to those days and see such a classic lineup with my own two eyes! Shocked

Two quick questions:

1: When were the last ex-5th Avenue Coach Old Looks retired? (I'm guessing late 60's/early 70's)

2: When were the last ex-5th Avenue New Looks retired?

Again, greatly appreciate your input......... Wink

"NYO"
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MaBSTOA 15



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of observations regarding some of the photos and comments posted within this topic:

a) Fifth Avenue Coach Company changed its name to Fifth Avenue Coach Lines in 1956 and the former New York City Omnibus (a subsidiary of the Omnibus Corporation like Fifth Avenue) were merged and the old New York City Omnibus buses were relettered to "Fifth Avenue Coach Lines" like #1700 in the photo linked above.

b) Fifth Avenue Coach Lines bought the bankrupt Surface Transportation in 1956 and it was renamed Surface Transit. Some equipment was moved around like the ex-Fifth Avenue Mack C-50s went to Surface, etc.

Some buses at Surface experimented with the Fifth Avenue Coach colors of green and cream(yellow) but the first official Surface Transit buses in the new color (green and cream) were the 10 Mack C-49-DT, numbers 3000-3009 purchased in 1958. These were followed by the 40 TDH 5106 of 1959 and then the TDH-5301s of 1960, numbers 6-10 with A/C and 3161-3210.

c) Guy Martin's book is mentioned. I congratulate his efforts but there are several errors stated in the book. For example:

Page 14, Fifth Avenue Coach #2227, TD-4506. He states "...Although it bore a simplified paint scheme, the famous slogan..."
This was not a simplified scheme by company choice but rather these buses came in this scheme of gray and white by order of the ODT, Office of Defense Transportation, during WWII and shortly after the end of the war. Certain paints, i.e. green were reserved for the military. These buses were later repainted into Fifth Avenue Colors used at the time, streamline green and cream.

Page 42, shows a yard full of Mack C-45-DTs. Actually it is the yard at the Flushing Depot (presently Casey Stengel Depot) the elevated train is on the #7 Flushing line and not the Third Avenue el! The square building by the tracks is the IRT sub-power station. If you look closely you'll see the buses have a seal under the driver's window. That was the Board of Transportation seal used at the time.

Surface Transportation defaulted on the payment for the buses and the Board of Transportation took them over. The buses, the majority, were delivered in Surface colors and were repainted into the BoT's green and silver. They were also renumbered 5000-5114.

I also found photos of same models repeated throughout. Howmany times do we need to see FACCo's Mack C-50? Triboro's Flxible New Looks??[/u][/i][/b]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA 15:

Appreciate you taking the time to post so much historical trivia, as well as your own views/opinions.

Regarding Guy E. Martin's book, I agree 100% on seeing so many photos depicting the same bus types (and, yet, there is only ONE photo showing a 5th Avenue Coach New Look!)

The book is an excellent one, but, as you stated, there were some errors; me, being a "Joisey Boy" since Day One, has to assume that the author has done his homework thoroughly, and is providing you with 100% correct data; oh well, I guess that's why there are erasers!) Rolling Eyes

C-45/47/50 MACKS were very common with the North Hudson "indies" I grew up with, back in the 60's.

All were gone by 1967/1968.

Again, appreciate your detailed input and views....

"NYO"
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