BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Fellows:

Growing up in northern NJ during the 1960's, the big TDH/TDM suburbans were familiar sights to me; I knew these big boys well and always greatly enjoyed any chance at getting to ride one.

A fellow transit buff friend of mine who has lived in general Baltimore area since the late 1940's, has told me he recalls only a few companies operating GM suburbans during the 50's and 60's.

I have a VHS tape, given to me by another transit friend, 20-odd years ago, full of home movie footage of buses in California from the late 40's through the mid-70's.

If I saw one GM Old Look suburban in that lengthy montage it was a lot (could the one-time California weight restriction have had anything to do with this, even though Old Look "transit" models eventually became very commonplace in the State)

My question is this: Were the Old Look suburban models more popular in some parts of the country than others?

As I noted earlier here, I remember the type being pretty much the backbone of a number of NJ carriers until GM Fishbowls and NJDOT Flex New Looks began replacing them in large numbers in later years.

I've long regarded them as "Jersey Buses", for obvious reasons!

I also wonder how popular they were in Canada; I've seen one photo of a TDH-5108 that was operated by MONETTE & FILS.

Appreciate any info you might be able to share....thank you.....

'NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

"Jersey Buses"......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3331

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1502

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3472

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1483

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1405

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Some other non-NJ area companies that once operated Old Look suburbans (besides GREYHOUND); I've also seen photos in the past of some that were operated in commuter service by TRAILWAYS.......

SUN VALLEY BUS CO. (Phoenix, Arizona)

LAKE SHORE MOTOR COACH LINE (Salt Lake City)

GULF TRANSPORT (Mobile, Alabama)

WISCONSIN COACH LINES (Waukesha, Wisconsin)

AMERICAN STAGES/ILLINI-SWALLOW LINES (Champaign, Illinois)

PROVINCIAL TRANSPORT (Montreal)

CLEVELAND-LORAIN HIGHWAY COACH cO. (Lorain, Ohio)

JOHNSON BUS LINES (Medford, Mass.)

THE OHIO BUS LINE COMPANY (Cincinnati)

PITTSBURGH-WEIRTON BUS CO. (Weirton, W. Virginia)

(info courtesy of: "OLD LOOK BUSES" (Luke/Metler)

[traildriver]

One important thing to consider....until the PD-4903 came out in 1968, the Suburban's had a seat capacity advantage over the Parlor types.

The Suburban's were available as 40 footer's more or less the same time the Transit 40 footer's came out...almost two decades prior to the 4903.

The Scenicruiser and Eagle were proprietary to GL and TWS carrier's, and there were just a handful of other 40 foot parlor types, none of which could be considered as serious contender's.

Then when the 4903 did come out, suddenly all the manufacturer's, MCI, Eagle, Prevost, and other's jumped into the market big time....

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

traildriver:

As always, I greatly appreciate your input and interesting historical notes.....thanks!

For many years, I would (and, quite honestly, still do) refer to any Old Look with a single door and transit-style seating as a "semi-suburban" (to me, a city transit coach was equipped with rear doors, while a "suburban" had only a front door)

PSNJ once operated a number of such single-door coaches, as did the ORANGE & BLACK and RED & TAN (I also recall many Fishbowls, operated by several carriers, which I would have also classified as "semi-suburbans")

Again, this is only a comment on my own personal "views" that I've had for many years now.

Among the earliest single-door YELLOW Old Looks were the TD-4502's, purchased by GREYHOUND in 1940 for Bay area commute operations.

Clearly, these were clearly buses best suited for "suburban" operations, versus the frequent "stop-and-go" nature of city running, where rear doors were de riguer......

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Single-door ("semi-suburbans", in my long-established bus lingo!) Old Looks of RED & TAN and NHBL (Man, how well I once knew these once-familiar relics!)

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1511

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3594

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Ex-PACIFIC GREYHOUND LINES K-1407, a 1951 TDM-5103 (one of only 37 built, today preserved at the PBM).........

http://www.pacbus.org/roster/pbm1407.html

(courtesy: Pacific Bus Museum)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Another "commuter" single-door Old Look which is part of the PAB collection is this stunning TDM-4512 (#246)......

http://www.pacbus.org/roster/pbm246.html

(courtesy: Pacific Bus Museum)

[traildriver]

NYO...agreed....the definition of what is a "suburban" can be interpreted in many ways.

To me, the most significant factor is if the manufacturer so designates them as such...in GM's case, the fishbowl era suburbans were "SDM's", or "SDH's", rather than "TDH's".

Besides the single door, 'true' suburbans usually had elevated, all forward-facing seats, with small underfloor baggage bays, as well as overhead package racks, rather than standee windows.

While they never made 'true' suburbans from the RTS design, NYCTA did have a fleet of them in Express service, with elevated, reclining seat, but still two doors....

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

traildriver:

In "THE BUS WORLD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF BUSES" (by Ed Stauss), there is a photo of the lone RTS "suburban" demo, built by GM in 1984.

The first "suburban" RTS coaches were delivered to GOLDEN GATE TRANSIT (San Rafael), but these buses included a rear door (NOT a suburban feature, certainly!) because the wheelchair lifts were only available in the rear door of the RTS bodies.

Getting back to the single-door Old Looks, among the earliest of such coaches after the War, were the TDM-4509's, which were operated by PSNJ.

Like so many buses I recall back in the day, growing up in New Jersey many moons back, these buses, though only having a single door, featured the standee windows so identified with "city transit" types.

This was even more interesting when you saw "semi suburbans" with rooftop a/c units, usually a key spotting feature with the suburban models.

I do recall ORANGE & BLACK operating several of the type many years ago (they might have been TDH-5105's, but am not at all sure)

AUTOBUS FOURIER (Ste-Foy, Quebec) once operated a number of suburban (and local) routes; a photo of one of their single-door TDM-4512's appears in "OLD LOOK BUSES" (Luke/Metler)........

"NYO"

[JimmiB]

NYO,

Checking the production lists, here is what I could find.

Red and Tan purchased the following...
TDM4509
purchased 5 in 1949
2 in 1951
3 in 1952

TDM4515
purchased 8 in 1954
5 in 1955

Orange and Black purchased 5 TDM4509's in 1952.

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

JimmiB;

Many thanks.....appreciate this info!

Up until about a year or so ago, there used to be an outstanding PSNJ site (Dave Mackey) that had an excellent collection of vintage PS photos; several good images of both suburban and "semi suburban" Old Looks were to be found.

Sadly, I think the site has since vanished into the vast void of cyberspace; it truly was an excellent research tool for anyone interested in the once great PS fleet.

Back in the "olden days", I remember several other companies that rostered "true" suburban Old Looks:

DE CAMP (I know they operated ten TDH-4509's)

SOMERSET (I remember that these were the last Old Looks operating into the PABT, in the very early 80's)

INTER-CITY

I know that BLUE & WHITE operated at least one Old Look suburban; I remember another that might have been an ex-PS 5106....again, I am only guessing here)

I've also seen a photo of a MICHAUD TDH-4515, which had originally been owned by WESTWOOD TRANSPORTATION LINES (Little Ferry, NJ).......

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

BLUE & WHITE's majestic #101 was indeed a classic (I am almost positive this was a second-hand coach, as I believe was the case with the rest of the B&W fleet; I know some buses were ex-PSNJ, while the New Look MACKS were from Yonkers)

Note other Old Looks in the background......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?135

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

A timeless portrait of SOMERSET's #9323.

SOMERSET's Old Looks were always especially handsome....

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1519

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

A Canadian property that also operated "semi-suburban" Old Looks was EASTERN GREYHOUND LINES; in fact, the company operated all of the Old Look transit buses in the Windsor and London areas.

They purchased a TD-4506 in 1946, and added ten TDM-4515's to the fleet in 1957.

Eventually, all of these routes were sold to a local outfit between 1963 and 1964......

"NYO"