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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:14 pm Post subject: Headlights and FACC double deckers |
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After (again) browsing through the pages of my copy of "NEW YORK FIFTH AVENUE COACH COMPANY1885-1960 (Ogden) I once again wonder at the pre-QUEEN MARY double deckers not being equipped with headlights.
I would have thought that, by the time the QM's began arriving, that it would have become mandatory for FACC to equip the older double-deckers with headlights.
IMHO, hose two small lamps under the windshields certainly could not have produced ample light for the drivers to see ahead of them during night runs!
Any info on this is greatly appreciated.....thanks in advance....
"NYO"
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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An exception (#1220)
http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2386
(could these headlights have been installed after bus had been retired and set aside for preservation?)
(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:15 am Post subject: |
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From the pages of the FACC book by Oliver J. Ogden, it is interesting to learn that FACC buses were equipped with illuminated destination signs long before the debut of "real" headlights......
"NYO" |
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frankie
Age: 77 Joined: 01 Feb 2011 Posts: 747 Location: St. Peters, Mo.
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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One can assume that the routes these buses took were well lit from the streetlights that driving was not a problem. Where streetlights were more scarce, I'm sure there were usually traffic in front of the bus for it to follow and see where it was going.
Frankie |
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N4 Jamaica
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 858 Location: Long Island
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Allow some thoughts from a person with a memory that may be faulty. I recall wartime years when headlights had to have their upper half painted black. I "think" that soon after the war ended, not only did that general requirement end, but in New York City people drivers were told to turn on their head lights but not highway-bright. Dad explained (or so I thought) that at one time headlights had to be turned off within the city. In reviewing the NY Times for the topic headlights new york city 1920-1940, I find several articles decrying the glare of headlights. Just as in 2015 when our city has an idiosyncratic law "No right on red," there is a chance that sometime in the twenties or thirties headlights were for rural highways, but forbidden inside our illuminated city. I have not found corroboration for that.
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However, recall that some of streetcars of Montreal in the forties and early fifties had illuminated fronts rather than headlights. See the two photos in this article:
http://spacing.ca/toronto/2007/04/12/will-streetcars-return-to-montreal/
A string of lights, hidden behind metal, was used below the windshield. One could see the streetcar approaching, but the illumination shone on the front and only a portion of the roadway ahead of the car. Maybe the same thinking existed in New York when FACCO ran without headlights.
Joe McMahon |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Fellows:
Greatly appreciate your input....thank you!
Yes, I already knew about the indirect dash lighting used on Montreal streetcars; a few Baltimore cars (early one-man rebuilds) were also equipped with them.
Acetylene headlights were commonplace on early autos and motor trucks; early FACC buses utilized acetylene for interior lighting.
PSNJ had a very sizeable bus fleet by the 20's (they were a big YELLOW customer, back in the day); even though the buses of the HUDSON and ESSEX Divisions operated on many urban routes where numerous streetlights lit the way, the buses were still equipped with headlights.
In closing, I think that it IS safe to say that Fifth Avenue was pretty brightly illuminated at night, even "way back when"...........
"NYO" |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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traildriver
Joined: 26 Mar 2011 Posts: 2459 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Streetlights or not, I find it incredible that they ran buses without headlites in that era.
I do recall that up until around 1960, or so, the older subway cars did not have true headlites either....what they did have were dim marker lite type headlites with clear fresnel lenses. When the new R-22 and R-27 cars came equipped with factory installed sealed beam headlites, they installed sealed beams on the older cars in the system. Of course seeing ahead is no where near as critical on a private right of way, then on the public highway... |
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traildriver
Joined: 26 Mar 2011 Posts: 2459 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:40 am Post subject: |
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This topic also reminds me that many city buses (at least Queens Transit), did not have right side mirrors. Driver's had to 'protect' their right side to prevent other traffic from squeezing in, and had to rely on inside mirrors and windows to see their right side. Ostensibly, this was to prevent pedestrian's from being struck by said mirror.... |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:15 am Post subject: |
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traildriver wrote: | Streetlights or not, I find it incredible that they ran buses without headlites in that era.
I do recall that up until around 1960, or so, the older subway cars did not have true headlites either....what they did have were dim marker lite type headlites with clear fresnel lenses. When the new R-22 and R-27 cars came equipped with factory installed sealed beam headlites, they installed sealed beams on the older cars in the system. Of course seeing ahead is no where near as critical on a private right of way, then on the public highway... |
traildriver:
Yes, folks WOULD think that headlights would be a NATURAL for SUBWAY cars!
Recall, the IRT's Hi-V and Lo-V fleet were utilizing kerosene markers until well into the 50's. Even as late as 1938, when the new "World's Fair" cars were delivered (the first IRT cars without vestibules, incidently) the new cars STILL lacked headlights, and utilized old-fashioned kerosene markers!
(as a sidenote, these 1938 cars also utilized old-fashioned metal plate destination signs in the fashion of the wooden elevated equipment of that era; the INTERBOROUGH obviously preferred these old-style signs over the "newfangled" roller signs that already had already been a standard in the industry for many years!)
Interestingly, Batimore and Cleveland (among other cities) also operated double-deckers during the 20's and 30's, and these buses were equipped with headlights (the 1930 YELLOW coaches operated by Baltimore's UR&E were virtually identical to those operated by FACC; double-deckers began operating in the Monumental City in 1922. Like the FACC buses of that era, these early models also lacked headlights; some were identical to those used by FACC.
ATLANTA COACH COMPANY, in 1925, took delivery of 15 gas-electric FAGEOL double deckers; these buses were outfitted with headlights from right the start......
"NYO"
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:46 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:35 am Post subject: |
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traildriver wrote: | This topic also reminds me that many city buses (at least Queens Transit), did not have right side mirrors. Driver's had to 'protect' their right side to prevent other traffic from squeezing in, and had to rely on inside mirrors and windows to see their right side. Ostensibly, this was to prevent pedestrian's from being struck by said mirror.... |
traildriver:
For many years (starting in 1931), PSNJ streetcars, motor buses (and later, ASV's) utilized mechanical semaphore arms that dropped down whenever the vehicle was loading or unloading passengers, and then would raise when the vehicle proceeeded.
These can be seen in many old PSNJ photos
Interestingly, PSNJ buses had them on both the right- and left-hand sides, while the streetcars had them only on the right.
Those on the buses by electrically operated push-buttons, while the "STOP" arm used on the trolleys were hand operated.
"NYO" |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22617 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Both Detroit and Cleveland once operated double deckers with tandem rear axles; this hulking vehicle operated in Detroit.
Like thier FACC counterparts, the Detroit coaches were not equipped with headlights......
http://www.detroittransithistory.info/images/DMB-636_460x280.jpg
(courtesy: detroittransithistory.info)
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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