BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

After (again) browsing through the pages of my copy of "NEW YORK FIFTH AVENUE COACH COMPANY1885-1960 (Ogden) I once again wonder at the pre-QUEEN MARY double deckers not being equipped with headlights.

I would have thought that, by the time the QM's began arriving, that it would have become mandatory for FACC to equip the older double-deckers with headlights.

IMHO, hose two small lamps under the windshields certainly could not have produced ample light for the drivers to see ahead of them during night runs!

Any info on this is greatly appreciated.....thanks in advance....

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

An exception (#1220)

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2386

(could these headlights have been installed after bus had been retired and set aside for preservation?)

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

In contrast, here's a view of #303.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2413

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

From the pages of the FACC book by Oliver J. Ogden, it is interesting to learn that FACC buses were equipped with illuminated destination signs long before the debut of "real" headlights......

"NYO"

[frankie]

One can assume that the routes these buses took were well lit from the streetlights that driving was not a problem. Where streetlights were more scarce, I'm sure there were usually traffic in front of the bus for it to follow and see where it was going.

Frankie

[N4 Jamaica]

Allow some thoughts from a person with a memory that may be faulty. I recall wartime years when headlights had to have their upper half painted black. I "think" that soon after the war ended, not only did that general requirement end, but in New York City people drivers were told to turn on their head lights but not highway-bright. Dad explained (or so I thought) that at one time headlights had to be turned off within the city. In reviewing the NY Times for the topic headlights new york city 1920-1940, I find several articles decrying the glare of headlights. Just as in 2015 when our city has an idiosyncratic law "No right on red," there is a chance that sometime in the twenties or thirties headlights were for rural highways, but forbidden inside our illuminated city. I have not found corroboration for that.
---
However, recall that some of streetcars of Montreal in the forties and early fifties had illuminated fronts rather than headlights. See the two photos in this article:
http://spacing.ca/toronto/2007/04/12/will-streetcars-return-to-montreal/
A string of lights, hidden behind metal, was used below the windshield. One could see the streetcar approaching, but the illumination shone on the front and only a portion of the roadway ahead of the car. Maybe the same thinking existed in New York when FACCO ran without headlights.
Joe McMahon

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Fellows:

Greatly appreciate your input....thank you!

Yes, I already knew about the indirect dash lighting used on Montreal streetcars; a few Baltimore cars (early one-man rebuilds) were also equipped with them.

Acetylene headlights were commonplace on early autos and motor trucks; early FACC buses utilized acetylene for interior lighting.

PSNJ had a very sizeable bus fleet by the 20's (they were a big YELLOW customer, back in the day); even though the buses of the HUDSON and ESSEX Divisions operated on many urban routes where numerous streetlights lit the way, the buses were still equipped with headlights.

In closing, I think that it IS safe to say that Fifth Avenue was pretty brightly illuminated at night, even "way back when"...........

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Fellows:

Had posted this link elsewhere on this board awhile back, but thought I would repost it again here.....

"NYO"

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/f/fifth_avenue/fifth_avenue.htm

[traildriver]

Streetlights or not, I find it incredible that they ran buses without headlites in that era.

I do recall that up until around 1960, or so, the older subway cars did not have true headlites either....what they did have were dim marker lite type headlites with clear fresnel lenses. When the new R-22 and R-27 cars came equipped with factory installed sealed beam headlites, they installed sealed beams on the older cars in the system. Of course seeing ahead is no where near as critical on a private right of way, then on the public highway...

[traildriver]

This topic also reminds me that many city buses (at least Queens Transit), did not have right side mirrors. Driver's had to 'protect' their right side to prevent other traffic from squeezing in, and had to rely on inside mirrors and windows to see their right side. Ostensibly, this was to prevent pedestrian's from being struck by said mirror....

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Early 1920's Baltimore double-decker; of particular interest are the open panels in the roof, which were covered by canvas curtains during inclement weather (Hey, is that silent film actor/stuntman Harold Loyd riding in one of the upper deck seats?)

http://www.trbimg.com/img-54c19caf/turbine/bal-doubledecker-bus-1924-20150122

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

This sad scene depicts Baltimore's once-proud 1930 YELLOW double-deckers awaiting the torch after the War; sad that not one of these behemoths was saved......

http://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6179/6177029122_65a3b1c77f_z.jpg

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Both Detroit and Cleveland once operated double deckers with tandem rear axles; this hulking vehicle operated in Detroit.

Like thier FACC counterparts, the Detroit coaches were not equipped with headlights......

http://www.detroittransithistory.info/images/DMB-636_460x280.jpg

(courtesy: detroittransithistory.info)