BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Gentlemen:

This is something that we might have touched upon elsewhere on this board awhile back, but it is something that I find interesting, and, yes, a bit confusing.

To me, a "transit" Old Look was one that featured rear exit doors.

A "Semi-Suburban" was one that had only doors at the front (and featured standee windows, as well as transit-style seating).

A " Straight Suburban" featured doors only at the front, reclining seats raised above the floor, and no standee windows.

On page #16 of "Welcome Aboard The GM New Look Bus" (McKane & Squier) there is a photo of what is obviously a PSNJ coach (sans PS heralds, numbers, etc.) The bus has standee windows, yet features the large rectangular rear window and air-conditiong unit seen on the "straight suburban" PSNJ 5108 on the previous page.

What I have long found conflicting is that some buses were clearly suburbans (w/ an air-conditioning unit on the roof, and a single set of doors), and yet featured the standee windows that we associate with a "local transit" bus, while others were true "suburbans" inside and out, with no standee windows and equipped with reclining seats.

Was a "semi-suburban" a cheaper option than a "straight suburban"?

Appreciate your comments, and, as always, greatly appreciate your input.....

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

See:

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1502

http://www.davemackey.com/psct/k514.html

(courtesy of bus.nycsubway.org and davemackey.com)

[Mr. Linsky]

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629,

On your first comment; there were many many GM Old Look buses in 'transit' configuration without a rear door - let's just say that the average such bus had one.

To my knowledge no bus was ever considered as 'semi suburban' and what you describe as such is merely as explained above.

Most straight suburbans in the Old Look design are as you describe except that you made no mention of 'drop sash' windows as seen on your photo of PSCT 5108 # M755.

GM used the 'panoramic' rear window, which was seen on some Parlor Models in the forties and early fifties, only on factory air conditioned Old Look transit styles such as those of New Jersey Public Service and DC Transit in Washington - there weren't too many more than that.

As far as your comment on standee windows; the buses without such transoms usually had parcel racks in there place - this was an option left to select by customers.

Putting this whole thing in a nut shell so to speak, what seemed to be confusing was because of the vast menu of options and even custom orders available to operators.

About the only uniformity found at GM were in their 'Inter City' coaches in the PD or PG configuration and, while each model was identical outwardly, a myriad of interior options made virtually no two orders alike!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L"

Thank you!

Greatly appreciate your taking the time to share some of your vast font of knowledge......always so much of tremendous value!

You are quite correct; with so many different models and options available from GM, things indeed could get a bit perplexing at times!

In "OLD LOOK BUSES" (Luke & Metler), there is a photo of a PSNJ TDM-5106; according to the photo caption, only 110 of these buses were built (front door only, standee windows, roof-mounted a/c unit)

PSNJ purchased 85 of them; the rest were purchased by RED & TAN and ORANGE & BLACK.

I remember seeing these handsome buses many times, back in the day!

In the aforementioned book, there is a photo of a SOUTH SUBURBAN SAFEWAY's 5105 (purchased secondhand from DENVER TRAMWAYS).

This bus, like the 5106, has one door, standee windows, and the older style a/c unit where a long duct ran along the length of the roof.

I have two photos of a similiar coach (the old roller curtain told me that this was originally an ORANGE & BLACK unit), that I took 40 years back.

This coach was sitting in a truck/bus parts dealer's yard, just a few blocks from my brother's house in North Bergen, back in 1974.

The bus was painted in a red, white, and blue scheme; clearly this bus was purchased by another operator from ORANGE & BLACK at some time (I never went back to see if I could purchase the side roller sign box!)

All in all, I find such discussion quite fascinating; it truly brings back great old memories of the halcyon days when the NJ bus scene was both diverse and fascinating!

Thanks again......

"NYO"

[Mr. Linsky]

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629,

Here's a 'mind blower' for you.

You're seeing a 'basic' TDH 4507 and one of five delivered to De Camp Interstate Transit Company of Clifton, New Jersey in February of 1947 but with a single door and parcel racks in place of standee glasses.

A couple of things that I failed to mention earlier; most transit operators that opted for one door did so merely to gain two additional seats and, in the case of Old Looks, GM refused to sell any single door bus without an emergency door even in states where they were not required.

This was done to prevent 'product liability' lawsuits in the event of a catastrophic accident involving the front end of the bus and leaving passengers trapped with no way out.

Of course, this became a moot question in the age of New Looks with kick open sashes.

Photo courtesy of the Motor Bus Society.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr."L":

Thanks for posting one of my favorite old DE CAMP pics!

I'm very familiar with this one, as it's seen in my well-worn copy of MOTOR COACH AGE, where a full history was given on DE CAMP.

Certainly, this type of coach did appear a little out of the ordinary, without the familiar standee windows!

Similiar GM's (w/standee windows) were purchased by DE CAMP in 1944.

According to the roster included in the article, the big 5108's seemed to be popular with DE CAMP.

On a side note, I still have some pics that I took at the old ORANGE & BLACK garage in Fairview, back in 1975.

At that time, the Old Looks were stored in the rear lot, while the Fishbowls were in the front of the garage, adjacent to Anderson Avenue.

I also took a few pics of the type I refer to as "semi suburbans"; all O&B coaches were particulary handsome in that now-classic paint scheme!

Hard to believe it's now nearly 40 years ago......

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

This 1974 photo shows an ex- DE CAMP TDM (a 5108?) in Manhattan.

Clearly, this bus is now running for another operator; though the distinctive DE CAMP paint scheme is still intact, none of the old lettering remains.

Note, too, the name of the new operator on the buses' lower flank (I cannot make it out, though), the blank roller curtain, and the "casual" attire of the driver)

If I am correct, DE CAMP had retired the last of its Old Looks, by this date.

I well remember riding these big coaches out to visit my aunt in West Orange 50-odd years ago, on the long-defunct DE CAMP #22, between JSQ and Caldwell.

Likewise, we also rode those beautiful ACF-BRILL C-44's.........a lifetime ago.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1405

(courtesy of bus.nycsubway.org)

[Mr. Linsky]

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629,

Your bus seen in person below (top frame) is ex DeCamp but is not a TDM 5108 by any stretch.

It is an early fifties pre air suspended TDH 4509.

Now, this may confuse you altogether and I can understand why so let me explain.

It was a transition period for GM in the introduction of a production suburban so they took a standard 4509 platform and gave it high back seats, drop sash passenger windows and a single door while, in most cases, retaining the ThermoMatic heating and ventilation systems.

The modeling of this bus was a mistake and should have been a 4512 which, at the time, was the next available number - that would certainly have defused the confusion.

In 1953 the introduction of the TDH and TDM 4515 with air suspension was the first genuine GM Suburban with its own exclusive model designation.

The 4515 differed only slightly from its predecessor 4509 hybrid in that in addition to being air suspended, it had an air intake in place of the GM badge under the windshield, a modified engine fresh air intake cowl over the rear quarter window and was not offered with a ThermoMatic system (see Canada Coach Lines # 1765 in lower frame).

BTW; the matching models in a 40 foot length were the TDH or M 5107 of which only 15 were built in 1952 and 1953 and the air suspended TDH or M 5108 from 1953 to 1959.

Hope this defines the matter.

Lower frame courtesy of Flickr.

Many regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L":

WOW!

You sure know how to blow one away, with what you know!

Would have NEVER guesed that the bus seen was a TDH-4509!

This, then, might explain a photo that I recall confusing me a good deal, taken at the old PSNJ Loop at Caldwell, also used by buses of the private-owned #144 and PS's #29 subway-surface cars to Newark.

The picture showed one of the streetcars, which made thier last run in march of 1952.

In back of the streetcar was what APPEARED to be a DE CAMP TDM (w/the "high" suburban-style windows); I checked my DE CAMP roster (from MOTOR COACH AGE) and saw that the delivery of the type took place AFTER the PS #29 cars had made their last runs.

Too, the photo clearly showed trees in full bloom, which would NOT have been the case had the photo had been taken in very early 1952.

Sadly, the exhaustive website (Dave's Electric Railroads) where the picture was from is no more, and I did not save the photo.

Incidently, there is a fine color photo of a DE CAMP TDH-4509 (taken in the 1960's) in "OLD LOOK BUSES" (Luke & Metler); the caption states that DE CAMP took delivery of ten of the type in 1951.

This then, thoroughly explains the "mystery" Caldwell trolley photo I had just mentioned.

The fault lies with me; I've long thought that ANY Old Look suburban with the "high" windows was automatically a TDM, whereas, a TDH was strictly a :local transit" type.

Thankfully, highly-knowledgeable fellows like yourself are here to further "educate" those of us who are not as "on the know" as you are!

Thanks again!

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Ex-PSNJ (1952) TDM-4509......

http://www.davemackey.com/psct/f599.html

(courtesy davemackey.com)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Restored PSNJ (1951) TDH-4509........

http://www.davemackey.com/psct/e313.html

(courtesy of davemackey.com)

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Timeless view of (1952) PSNJ TDM-5107 F700 at the old PS terminal in Newark.

This is the type of bus that has always defined "suburban" for me, a true "Jersey Bus"........

http://www.davemackey.com/psct/f700.html

[Mr. Linsky]

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629,

Here's a couple of factoids for you;

Records indicate that DeCamp purchased thirty one TDH-4509's with #'s 178 to 187 in 1949, 188 to 193 in 1950, 204 to 213 in 1951 and 214 to 218 in 1952.

Believe it or not, only thirteen TDM 5107's and two TDH 5107's were ever manufactured and all went to New Jersey operators except the two hydraulics built for The Short Line of Providence, Rhode Island.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr."L":

Yes, indeed, the 5107's were indeed rare birds, Jersey buses through and through, except for those two that went out of state to SHORT LINE!!

While we're on the subject of Old Look suburbans and thier cousins, let me run this one by you......

I have a snap I took back in the summer of 1975, shortly after my high-school graduation (ANCIENT history, to be sure!)

I took this picture at Battery Park, showing a rear view of a "suburban" (w/ high windows), sporting full silver siding.

The bus was operated by ACADEMY BUS COMPANY CHARTER SERVICES; the coach # was 823 and had NY plates.

It had the standard GM curved rear windows, and two bulging red marker lights, one on either side of the window.

This, of course, caught my eye.

What I found of particular interest, was that there was (this is how it appeared to me) some sort of narrow, blanked off rectangular vent, between the marker lights.

I doubt that this was an air-conditioning unit; it was quite diminutive.

This was the one and only time I ever saw anything like this setup.

The bus was mostly orange, with blue beneath the silversiding, and the old-style phone # was emblazoned on the rear (SP9-1025)

Any clues on this one?

Thanks again.......

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

All:

While we are on the subject, I was just looking at a few other photos from the summer of 1975, at the old BLUE & WHITE garage/lot on Tonnelle Avenue in North Bergen.

Amongst the pictures (including some magnificent New Look MACKS), there are two buses that might have been ex-PSNJ or O&B.

#108 had a single door, standee windows, and a blanked-off a/c vent.

It also sported a large rectangular rear window.

The other coach I caught on camera (number not legible), featured high suburban windows, two rear windows, and an a/c unit.

As I stated earlier, these coaches MIGHT have been either ex-PSNJ or ex-O&B.

Hard to believe it's almost 40 years since I took these photos (two old "standard" ex-Yonkers MACKS were on the property and stropped of parts, bieng used as storage sheds and parts donors)......

"NYO"