BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Gentlemen:

A few questions on the FACC for "those in the know":

Were there conductors aboard the "Queen Mary" coaches, or, were these all one-man buses?

I know thier Chicago counterparts were one-man vehicles.

When the position of conductor was finally eliminated, did these men have the option to become drivers, or were they simply let go?

Had WW2 not intervened, do you think that the FACC would have eliminated all double-deckers earlier?

Lastly, though FACC topography was not (in a strict sense) a hilly area; it would seem to me that the double-deckers would be slow and lumbering when encountering any sort of a significant "grade".

Greatly appreciate your input......

"NYO"

[Mr. Linsky]

[NorthShore]

To answer another one of your questions, yes I am sure Fifth Avenue & Chicago Motor Coach would have replaced the D/D's sooner had it not been for WWII.
By 1938, Omnibus realized the Queen Marys were not functioning efficiently--single deck was the only practical option.
Yellow Coach developed the TD-5401 jumbo single decker in 1939 with a production model completed in 1940. After testing, the results were satisfactory. Production would have started in 1941, but WWII began, and bus production halted. As soon as the war was over Chicago replaced the Queens Marys as soon as possible with the TDH-5502's, the production version of TD-5401. D/D's were gone in Chicago by 1951.
Fifth Avenue had other issues, inluding problems with length and width restrictions and the nostalgia, but by 1953, all Queen Marys were replaced by single deck 40 footers.

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Fellows:

Thank you for your responses; they more than answered my inquiries!

Strange, even today, when many picture a "Fifth Avenue Bus" (especially older folks), a double-decker comes to mind in a flash.

(sidenote: just yesterday, I purchased from an eBay dealer, a 1971 liquor decanter that replicates an old 5th Avenue "open topper"; I had been trying to snap up this rare piece for my collection for years. It even features an authentic destination reading!)

One can also see, that, even with more modern equipment, FACC realized that the utmost in operating efficiency was in the form of single-deck coaches.

The FACC double-deckers were obviously very much in the public eye, back in the day; in fact, a 1927 "ERECTOR SET" advertisement depicts an "open-topper" as one of the models that could be built!

In fact, a delightful 1951 children's book, "BLUNDERBUS" tells the story of "Old No. 3" ("BLUNDERBUS"), the very last of the old Fifth Avenue open-toppers, and his daily interactions with the sleek, shiny (and sometimes antagonistic!) "single-deckers" that now rule the routes.

Though double-deckers ran in several other cities years back (Chicago, Baltimore, LA, and Cleveland, as examples) the FACC were the ones that were the most easily recognizeable to many, especially movie-goers.

Though FACC's single-deck coaches were handsome and sleek, somehow.......Fifth Avenue was never quite the same without the old double-deckers.......

"NYO"

[andy47]

The Queen Marys were originally operated withn two men. The conductor had a small seat atop the right front wheel well, where he collected fares as passengers boarded.

In December 1946 FACC retired its last open top rear entrance double deckers, making its only double deckers the Queen Marys. At that time it finally reached an agreement with the Transport Workers Union to eliminate conductors. Conductors over 60 were retired on lifetime pensions; those under 60 were retrained as drivers or if unable to drive were assigned to light duty jobs such as street fare collectors. Queen Marys from then on, till retirement in 1953, were one man buses.

Single deck GMC 4506 and 4507s were purchased to replace the older double deckers. After 1946 the Queen Marys were assigned only to routes 2 (5th-7th Aves.), 5 (5th-Riverside Drive), and 15 (5th-Jackson Heights).

While it is true that the Upper Manhattan can be quite hilly above 110th Street, the FACC buses were routed onto gradual slopes to avoid the steepest grades. 110th Street west of 8th Avenue, and 155th Street on the viaduct between the Harlem River and St. Nicholas Avenue, were probably the steepest hills - and both used double deck buses.

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

andy47:

Greatly appreciate your additional input; I see now that the "QM's" did originally operate with conductors.

It would indeed seem (from what I've read and from what I have learned here) that the FACC was quite a fascinating company during its existence; one photo in "FIFTH AVENUE COACH COMPANY" (by Oliver J. Ogden) shows trash cans with the FACC logo emblazoned on them, adjacent to the bus stop at Convent and St. Nicholas Avenues (Route #3)

Though the book does show a few photos of FACC "service trucks", it would be interesting to see what thier refuse trucks looked like.

Though "forward thinkers" might have found the double-deckers ponderous and ungainly, IMHO, for all of thier bulk, they had a grace and a dignity that no modern bus could ever hope to match. The front-engined Yellows, especially, seemed to have an aura of subdued majesty about them......

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

A dignified veteran of many years of faithful service.....

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3386

[Mr. Linsky]

I wasn't aware that they had conductors on FACCO's Queen Marys which, if so, was obviously before my time riding them and I find nothing in literature to substantiate the fact.

Actually, Ogden, in his book 'New York Fifth Avenue Coach Company 1885-1960', specifically mentions that the prototype Queen Mary and presumably all to follow were 'one man' operations (that was the whole point of moving the stairways to the interiors on the last of the closed top Z's in 1931 thus giving the driver a fare box)

When he further says that upon the arrival of the Queen Mary's in New York all drivers and conductors were outfitted with new uniforms (the conductors that he refers to were those that worked the open topped 'Z' models with exterior stairways from 1930 which continued to operate until 1946.

While diagrams of the Queen Mary lower level do show a single seat on the curb side just aft of the front door it was arranged that way to afford a wider area for passenger ingress.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L":

Once again, I thank you for your always informative input.

Yes, I also read the same about the FACC conductors in Mr. Ogden's book (the new uniforms they wore when when the "QM's" debuted)

I've long lamented that FACC double-deckers were never duplicated in scale model form; unless I missed something over the years, I've never seen a model of one of these buses.

A CORGI replica of either an open-topper or a "QM" would be an outstanding addition to one's collection, without a doubt!

Of course, back in the 20's and 30's, a large number of cast-iron, lead, and tin toy double-deckers were manufactured, but I've never seen any lettered for the FACC.

These, as you might expect, are rare and pricey collectibles today.

One can only imagine, today in 2013, what 5th Avenue would have been like if double-deckers had not gone out of fashion, and were still running.

From the new vehicles I've seen in sightseeing serice (and abroad, in revenue service), perhaps it's just as well.

The new models simply do not have the charm and the appeal of the old FACC coaches........far too bland and high-tech for my old-fashioned tastes......

"NYO"

[Mr. Linsky]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L":

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT A BEAUTY!!!!!!!!!

Though St. Persburg prices are LIGHT YEARS away from what I can afford, I cannot help but imagine what they could do with either a "QM", or a YELLOW "Z"!

Masterpieces in minature, surely!

"NYO"

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Proud survivors of another age.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?572

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Another FACC "musing":

For years now, I've often why the "Z's" were never retrofitted with larger, more modern headlights in later years.

I cannot help but wonder as to just how much of the street ahead would be illuminated by those diminutive lights on either side of the hood, just below the windshield.

One might have to assume that FACC drivers must have been blessed with exceptional night vision!

I'm sure there's an interesting bit of historical trivia, here.....

"NYO"

[Mr. Linsky]

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629,

What headlights? - Fifth Avenue's Z's never came with headlights at all and I've been trying to figure that one out for years.

Check Ogden's photos and tell me how many Z's you find with headlamps!

I can't imagine how they could have driven at night especially with the poor street lighting back when.

But, then again, you're talking about a company that never had use for directional signals either! (I guess they thought they were immune!).

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

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