BusTalk

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

Frankie - MR 'L' -

With the old PSNJ way of doing things, the first digit indicated class of service for which the Coach intended.
See the Mackey work. IIRC, the "300" series used in classic, shorter haul city work...

Or, to say it is doubtful if same appliances used across all "service classes" of equipment.

........................Vern.................

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject:

frankie,

If it were the case that these window bars were used in conjunction with a cleaning procedure, then I would have to say that all the sashes would have been so equipped.

At one time, all GM Old Looks built for service in New Jersey were required to have the passenger safety split sashes (or at least two or three bars on each window) but, at some point, the state must have eased the restriction (probably because of the extra costs to the operators) and only required that the bench seats atop the wheel wells be so protected.

The purpose of these safety devices was to prevent passengers from riding with their elbows out the windows and for those sitting sideways on the mentioned benches (as they often did) the use of the top of the back of the bench for their elbows to rest on made it more comfortable.

The logical answer to the problem would have been to have had dividers in the form of arm rests between the three passenger capacity on the benches.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:59 am Post subject:

Just to demonstrate how far back the concept of windows bars on buses go, take a gander below!

Pictured in 1919 in front of its garage in the Windy City is fleet number 129 - an open topped double decked coach of unknown make operating for the Chicago Motor Bus Company and featuring a set of four bars traveling the full length of the lower window area.

Between 1920 and 1922, the Chicago Motor Bus Company along with the Chicago Stage Company and the Depot Motor Bus Lines merged to become the Chicago Motor Coach Company.

Photo thanks to eBay.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject:

In March of this year I spotlighted an article from the New York Times about a book entitled 'The Wheels of the Birmingham Civil Rights Movement' written by Worcey Crawford - the first African American to own and operate a bus line in the U.S.

At the time, I made no personal comment about the oddities of the GM Old Look bus that accompanied the piece and that can be seen in the attachment below shown with Mr. Crawford's son Donald who had become the curator of a collection of vintage buses in Birmingham.

The bus, a GM Model TDH 4512 built sometime between 1953 and 1959 and possibly originally operated by either the Mobile or Montgomery City Lines, features a second set of floor vents under the windshield (not uncommon in the deep south), outward opening front doors ala Surface Transportation and rare sliding passenger windows like those found on New York's 5106's in the 9000 series.

This 4512's all aluminum body makes it a prime candidate for full restoration some day.

Photo by Eric S. Lesser for the New York Times.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

JimmiB · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:14 am Post subject:

The "mustard" brown color around the headlights looks like the same color as the lower half of Mongomery's old looks.

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:07 am Post subject:

JimmiB,

Both Montgomery and Mobile City Lines were part of the 'National City Lines' network and wore what was known as their trademark 'fruit salad' livery as shown below on a Montgomery rehab job.

The remnant of the mustard color that you speak of around the headlight frames would certainly confirm the fact that the bus was either from Montgomery, Mobile or any number of other "NCL' operations across the country.

However, a member of another bus site and a native of Birmingham has indicated that the bus in the earlier posted photo was one of 100 purchased by the Birmingham Transit Company which had no ties to NCL.

I guess we'll have to leave it at that until I can come up with more information.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

frankie · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject:

[/quote]

Is it just me or the angle that the photo was taken? The side windows look like they slide horizontally similar to the NYCTA 9000 series 1958 model TDH-5106 buses. One would think that the vertical member of the paired window would be more prominent (even at the angle this photo was taken) like the example of the bus above this thread.

Frankie

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject:

frankie,

Please re-read that part of my original report concerning the windows below;

"The bus, a GM Model TDH 4512 built sometime between 1953 and 1959 and possibly originally operated by either the Mobile or Montgomery City Lines, features a second set of floor vents under the windshield (not uncommon in the deep south), outward opening front doors ala Surface Transportation and rare sliding passenger windows like those found on New York's 5106's in the 9000 series".

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

MR 'L' - frankie -

The "feeling in my bones" is these coaches were most likely the "new buy" of the Birmingham Transit Co. operator.
More, the particular order likely "later build"? Perhaps there's a line entry in the Ohio Museum compend?

With N C L, and its controlled properties: Web based sources are vague, if at all, about dates when it all began to
wind down, with disposition of various properties. In my own conjecture, as it happened once the various government
takeovers in play, fleet in a given city conveyed to new (publicly funded) operating entity. It all just faded away?

A Wikipedia account plays all of it fairly straight. Yet, it doesn't include dispositions of lines. (MISC) In its "Note 15"
reference, seems to inaccurately include New York in list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines

.....................Vern.................

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:27 am Post subject:

Vern,

The following cities had transit systems which were at one time owned by National City Lines. Included are the years of NCL ownership, and the systems which NCL did convert from streetcars after acquisition. This conversion to buses has sometimes been referred to as "bustitution".

Also included are companies owned by Pacific City Lines, which until 1948 existed as a separate company, although with ties to NCL. Not included are certain companies, which at one time were owned by executives of NCL, while actually separate companies.

* Aurora/Elgin, IL (1937-1966)
* Beaumont, TX (1937-1972) BUSTITUTION!
* Bellingham, WA (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
* Bloomington, IL (1936-1966) BUSTITUTION!
* Burbank, CA (1944-1946)
* Burlington, IA (1941-1959)
* Butte, MT (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
* Canton, OH (1940-1971)
* Cedar Rapids, IA (1937-1966) BUSTITUTION!
* Champaign, IL (1936-1966) BUSTITUTION!
* Danville, IL (1936-1964) BUSTITUTION!
* Davenport, IA (1950-1974)
* Decatur, IL (1936-1972) BUSTITUTION!
* East St. Louis, IL (1935-1963)
* El Paso, TX (1943-1976)
* Eureka, CA (1939-1946) BUSTITUTION!
* Everett, WA (1938-1946)
* Fresno, CA (1939-1946) BUSTITUTION!
* Galesburg, IL (1934-1936)
* Glendale, CA (1940-1962) BUSTITUTION!
* Great Falls, MT (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
* Houston, TX (1966-1974)
* Inglewood, CA (1942-1946)
* Jackson, MI (1936-1964)
* Jackson, MS (1939-1966)
* Joliet, IL (1934-1970)
* Kalamazoo, MI (1936-1967)
* Kewanee, IL (1936-1937) BUSTITUTION!
* Lansing, MI (1936-1937)
* LaSalle/Peru, IL (1936-1937)
* Lincoln, NB (1942-1971) BUSTITUTION!
* Long Beach, CA (1946-1963)
* Mobile, AL (1939-1971) BUSTITUTION!
* Montgomery, AL (1935-1974) BUSTITUTION!
* Oshkosh, WI (1933-1934)
* Ottumwa, IA (1941-1951)
* Pasadena, CA (1940-1963) BUSTITUTION!
* Peoria, IL (1955-1964)
* Pontiac, MI (1936-1960)
* Port Arthur, TX (1937-1950) BUSTITUTION!
* Portsmouth, OH (1939-1959) BUSTITUTION!
* Quincy, IL (1936-1966)
* Rock Island, IL (1950-1974)
* Sacramento, CA (1943-1955) BUSTITUTION!
* Saginaw, MI (1936-1962)
* Salt Lake City, UT (1944-1968)
* San Jose, CA (1938-1963, 1970-1973) BUSTITUTION!
* Sioux City, IA (1953-1967)
* South Bend, IN (1956-1967)
* Spokane, WA (1945-1968)
* Stockton, CA (1939-1963) BUSTITUTION!
* Tampa, FL (1942-1971)
* Terre Haute, IN (1939-1955) BUSTITUTION!
* Tulsa, OK (1936-1957)
* Wichita Falls, TX (1950-1971)

National City Lines also had significant control of the following additional transit systems.

* Baltimore Transit Co. (1944-1972)
* Jacksonville - Motor Transit Co. (1943-1945)
* Los Angeles Transit Lines (1945-1958)
* Oakland - Key System Transit Lines (1946-1960)
* Philadelphia Transportation Co. (1955-1966)
* St. Louis Public Service Co. (1940-1963)

"Bustitution" was not significant with these transit systems. Jacksonville had already converted to buses. The Key System discontinued all remaining local streetcars in 1948, but retained the interurban trains over the San Francisco Bay Bridge until 1958. Some streetcars remained in Los Angeles through the public takeover in 1958. And the original streetcars in Baltimore and St. Louis outlasted Chicago's streetcars, and those cities now have new light rail systems. And Philadelphia still has streetcars.

Information courtesy of web.me.com

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:20 am Post subject:

Vern,

Here's the whole story on the Montgomery rehab job;

Through a combined effort of the City of Montgomery, Alabama and the Federal Transit Administration, the Montgomery Area Transit System now has a new GM Old Look bus complementing its fleet.

The bus is a 1950s era Model TDH 3612 that has been fully restored to operating status and resembles the coaches that were in service in Montgomery during the early 50's and is completely functional incuding all Americans with Disabilities Act requirements.

This unique coach provides several different services for the transit system not the least of which being its historical presence. On special occasions it circulates downtown for shoppers, operates fixed regular runs, and will participate in a developing school outreach program.

Pictured below are shots taken during various phases of the restoration.

The Montgomery City Lines, Inc. was owned by the City of Montgomery as is its successor Montgomery Area Transit System which is operated under contract by First Transit Group, Inc. (they sure get around!).

BTW; I don't think the integrity of the body of this rehab was very much compromised by the wheelchair access because of its shorter length but you can be sure that the possibility was considered in reconstruction.

Photographs courtesy of MATS.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

MR 'L' -

G M C TDH-3612 with Betterments, at Montgomery...

Wow! This one gets to the Folder: Moral Equivalent Of Dumb Computer Tricks? Ah! Thru Everlasting Gifts from the (secular)
Golden Calf, all things possible? When all said and done, I rather suspect a conclusion, "...it was more trouble than what it
was worth..."? Nevertheless, a more sensible and efficient solution compared with contemporary coaches of comparable seat
capacity? As I guessed, N C L had no part in it!

The photos! They are great! I see the project apparently involved working integral air conditioning into the existing design.
What is missing? Detail photos of how the structural area modified, to accommodate the much later idea of the passenger
side access hatchway. You make a good point about the shorter length of this coach. There is still the issue of "live load
dynamics" of the modified coach in service. It will usually expose any design flaws, over time. (And, some towns and cities
have very poor roads!) (Much like the later GRUMANN experiences?)

......................Vern.....................