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'GM OLD LOOK ODDITIES'
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roymanning2000



Age: 75
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. L,

That photo brings back a few memories of busfanning forays to Cincinnati in my earlier years. I had forgotten about that bar over the windows. Back in those days, it seemed that the front advertising signs on Cincy buses was either Schoenling or Burger beers or Husman's Potato Chips.

Thanks for posting it.

Roy
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timecruncher



Age: 73
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 456
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Route 48 was, by this time, a rush-hour only creature that carried practically nobody (no one knew where it went), and was discontinued in 1976 or 1977.

Cincinnati Transit had push doors on their streetcars, so they bought all of their GM, Mack and Twin (and ACF) transit buses with them.

timecruncher
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frankie



Age: 77
Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 745
Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of GM oddities. As we all know the transit fishbowl came in 4 series with each having some exterior feature changed with each new series - most noticeable were the tail lights and side roof marker lights at the front. However there were no changes during the production of each series - only with the introduction with a new one, regardless of bus length and width.

However with the old looks, there were so many tail light configurations in different positions throughout the production of these buses that I've lost count. There are rears with double horizontal tail lights, double vertical tail lights, single tail lights, round ones, arrow shapes, etc. in various positions. I can only assume that this was the bus company's option when ordering old looks. Of course this isn't just relegated to the tail lights.

I am wondering what an "off the shelf" model would look like without any options - if any do exist.

For the sake of keeping it simple, lets just concentrate on the paired window old looks only.

Frankie
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankie,

There were standards;

The GM Old Old Looks (those were the ones with the square windows but not including the Toro Flows and Hydra Matics of the sixties) carried two round 'Stop' Lights (one on each rear engine hatch) and small black oval fixtures containing dim directional arrows;

The potpourri really manifested itself with the advent of the new Old Looks (those were the ones with the paired windows).

Earlier models still came with the same stop lights and directional signals as the squared windows but there was the option of the 'ACF' type very large signals which I believe also acted as stop lights in the rear (all of Queens/Nassau and Schenck equipment went with these custom arrows).

About mid 1950, the small arrows disappeared and were replaced with larger round fixtures which also acted as stop lights in the rear.

Then they added another set of lights in the rear usually under the originals as markers leaving the originals as signals only.

Of course, there were after market installations on buses that came without signals such as all New York City Omnibus and Fifth Avenue Coach equipment and they located there front signals under the headlamps.

Hope that helps you.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'
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frankie



Age: 77
Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 745
Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mr. L - I appreciate the information and yes, it did help. Speaking of tail light oddities, if you go back to the first page and about half way down, you'll see a rear view shot of a 36/3700 series (#364) with the tail lights above the access doors. I'd love to see the order sheet for this one!

Frankie
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timecruncher



Age: 73
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 456
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of those were done by transit companies who wanted the rear panel for ad space. The rear was/is a valuable piece of ad property, because anyone following the bus sees that panel. I know of no GM bus delivered with taillights anywhere except on the rear engine doors (easier to change out and/or repair, for one thing). Louisville moved theirs up above the door, as did many other carriers.

timecruncher
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frankie



Age: 77
Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 745
Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we see what maybe the only transit company to have a full destination sign on the rear of the bus. Greenline of Northern Kentucky did this as a standard practice regardless of bus make mainly to facilitate loading at the Dixie Terminal in downtown Cincinnati. One would assume that the conversions were done at the local shops rather than at the factories, but I have no evidence of this. The practice goes back to the mid to late '30's - not sure when it stopped, but their uniqueness makes them quite interesting.

The GM is a 1948 model TDH-4008. The GM's must have been a sight to behold as one could not imagine a break into the smooth downward curve from roof to rear especially a destination sign - except when air conditioning units were introduced. The last two photos show the same treatment on a Mack LD-3G and a Brill T-40 trolley bus.

Frankie

Images and some information provided by the MBS for educational purposes only.





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Mr. Linsky
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankie,

Pictured in a factory shot at Allentown, Pa. is the same 'The Green Line' Mack from the front (notice the 'Manufacturer's' plate # 4126 in both pictures).

This means that the very rare rear destination sign was a factory installation and probably in lieu of the traditional side sign that is missing in both photos.

As rare as this installation is, I've seen it once before (lower photo) and it might and might not be the same operator with different livery (notice the rear of the small GM coach upper left).

Upper photo courtesy of the Mack Truck Museum.
Lower photo from an 'Electrocam' advertisement.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'


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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timecruncher wrote:
Most of those were done by transit companies who wanted the rear panel for ad space. The rear was/is a valuable piece of ad property, because anyone following the bus sees that panel. I know of no GM bus delivered with taillights anywhere except on the rear engine doors (easier to change out and/or repair, for one thing). Louisville moved theirs up above the door, as did many other carriers.

timecruncher



timecruncher,

I think the following photo from Phoenix will support your point on the movement of the rear lights and why.

BTW; Harrington lost the election!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

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roymanning2000



Age: 75
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. L,

The orange and cream buses in the second photo belong to Cincinnati Street Railway, later known as Cincinnati Transit Company. Though both operated into Cincinnati, I don't believe the Green Line was ever affiliated with Cincinnati Street. Still, it is interesting that both companies specified that feature.

I believe that later GM old-looks, and maybe some of the new-looks, belonging to Cincinnati Transit had roll sign boxes mounted inside the bus, positioned in the curbside rear window. At least, that's what my memory tells me. And that's never wrong! Very Happy Maybe Mr. Timecruncher can confirm that.

Roy
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roymanning2000 wrote:
Mr. L,

The orange and cream buses in the second photo belong to Cincinnati Street Railway, later known as Cincinnati Transit Company. Though both operated into Cincinnati, I don't believe the Green Line was ever affiliated with Cincinnati Street. Still, it is interesting that both companies specified that feature.

I believe that later GM old-looks, and maybe some of the new-looks, belonging to Cincinnati Transit had roll sign boxes mounted inside the bus, positioned in the curbside rear window. At least, that's what my memory tells me. And that's never wrong! Very Happy Maybe Mr. Timecruncher can confirm that.

Roy



roymanning2000,

That's what I thought it might have been but was unsure and I didn't want to stick my neck out!

Thanks for the info.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a GM Old Look oddity but not one created at the factory!

In 1967 Santa Monica Municipal Bus Lines of Santa Monica, Ca. (known as 'The Big Blue Bus' today) sold five of their 1955 GM TDH 4512's to Kent State University's newly formed Campus Bus Service (CBS) at Kent, Ohio (coincidentally, seven Green Bus Lines (NY) 1954 TDH 4512's arrived simultaneously but have no bearing on this story).

According to photographic records all of Santa Monica's paired window GM Old Looks including their 3714's, 4512's, 4801's and 5105's originally came sans ThermoMatic heating and ventilation systems as can be clearly seen on fleet # 4523 (below top) while still in Santa Monica's possession.

And yet, the lower frame shows the same bus operating as CBS # 2445 in its new livery and carrying a ThermoMatic air intake over the destination sign.

This contradiction bewildered me until I carefully examined the 2445 picture and photos of the other four buses and spotted the six roof dampers which only appeared on Old Look equipment without the ThermoMatic systems.

Now, it remains to be seen as to whether CBS mechanics just added the intakes as dummies or that they actually installed complete TM units including the cabinets over the driver's seats (which I doubt).

I can tell you that Green Line's seven 4512 CBS buses had genuine TM systems - I should know - I drove them all many times!

Upper photo by Jim Husing of Norcal Bus Fans.
Lower photo courtesy of Kent State University.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York


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roymanning2000



Age: 75
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. L,

The winters in northeast Ohio get very chilly. I'd bet that the Thermo-matic system on those Kent State buses was fully functional.

Given that those buses came all the way from the west coast, I wonder if KSU bought them through a dealer like Hausman. Certainly, that firm had the resources available to install the complete Thermo-matic set-up.

Roy
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Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, one of my not-so-great photos from 39 years ago. Only had a Kodak "Duaflex" box camera and some B & W film and not much sense of composure but thought I'd better get out while my favorite buses were still running. Actually, I think a few of them lasted until about 1980. Forgot about Harrington. Of course, now we have Sheriff Joe, the most famous Sheriff in the country. Laughing Laughing

Mr. Linsky wrote:





I think the following photo from Phoenix will support your point on the movement of the rear lights and why.

BTW; Harrington lost the election!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roymanning2000,

Point well taken on the ThermoMatics.

I know that Green Line (NY) sold many of their surplus buses directly to operators in New Jersey and Pennsylvania but, beyond that, could well have employed a broker such as Hausman for those that went far out to the midwest.

BTW; the ThermoMatic heating system which directed warm air via ducts over the standee glasses was only really useful in heavy city crowd conditions where it was of no matter that heat rose instead of falling!

However, in suburban operation the systems were much less efficient and that's why all Green Line buses equipped with ThermoMatics had optional underseat and dashboard heaters.

This whole Santa Monica subject came to my attention after seeing the attached photo from Flickr of a GM Old Look at Double A in Connecticut dressed in FACCO's last livery and was said to be an ex 4512 from Santa Monica sold to Surface Transit (formerly Surface Transportation of New York).

I doubted this again because of the ThermoMatic intake and the fact that it would have to have come from Santa Monica pre NYC takeover of FACCO/Surface in 1962 and none of Santa Monica's 26 4512's were disposed of until the mid sixties.

However, it would be interesting to find out exactly where # 7141 (below) fits into the FACCO/Surface family (if it does at all!).

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

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