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'EMERGENCY DOORLESS GM OLD LOOKS'
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buslist



Age: 71
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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Location: Lombard IL, Pueblo CO, London UK

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="traildriver"]
HwyHaulier wrote:
Mr 'L' -

Dates, dates? The provision may not have been in ILLINOIS CODE. The law itself surely must have been changed,
following the May 1950 Tragedy of a collision between a gasoline tanker and a Chicago PCC Car?



All of CTA's Marmon Trolley buses (360) that were purchased in '51-'52 after the tragedy were were sans emergency exits, as were all the post war trolley buses.
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JimmiB



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Location: Lebanon, PA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1951 Marmon-Harrington Model TC49 at Illinois Railway Museum.


Photo by Charles Sarjeant. Borrowed for educational purposes.
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankie wrote:
Mr L: Here's another interesting observation concerning stress modifications. You mentioned the fact that the emergency doors added to the stress problems with the earlier 4510's that led to the roof strengthening program.

However, have you noticed that no modifications were ever made to the suburban style 4500 series? Those with the taller windows sans standee windows probably never had to be modified and probably wasn't necessary due to the lack of the rear doors.

If you closely through the windows, you can see where the emergency door is located by the lower height of the side window.

Frankie

Photo courtesy of Luke's book on oldlooks for educational purposes



frankie,

The original stress problem was discovered on many of New York City's 'wide bodied' 1948 TDH 4510's - 500 were built exclusively to NYC specs (with an additional demo to L.A.) and were the first 102 inch jobs ever fabricated by GM.

There never really was an issue with any 96 inch wide paired window models but GM changed all later transit 4509's and all paired window transits thereafter.

The fact that the later 4509 suburbans (which is what De Camp #207 was) and subsequent suburbans were not altered has to lead me to believe that the rear passenger door played some role in the original problem.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'
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Mr. Linsky
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I must apologize to BusList for using the attachment originally without due credit - it was not deliberate! - I've had the photo for a number of years and forgot where it came from and also forgot to use the usual 'educational purposes' disclaimer - I guess age is catching up with me!

I'm bringing back the photo to highlight an ingenious and clever 'wrap around' design (albeit only on the driver's side) used by Chicago Motor Coach/CTA to replace the original factory front bumpers on at least their 5502's.

For some as yet to be determined reason, the lower body panel between the front wheel housing and the bumper on the driver's side on many Old Looks where vulnerable to attack.

A perfect example of such incursion may be seen on Green Line's (NY) 4509 # 319 (page 106 of Martin's 'New York City Transit Buses').

The Chicago 'fix' virtually eliminated such mishaps.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
First of all, I must apologize to BusList for using the attachment originally without due credit - it was not deliberate! - I've had the photo for a number of years and forgot where it came from and also forgot to use the usual 'educational purposes' disclaimer - I guess age is catching up with me!

I'm bringing back the photo to highlight an ingenious and clever 'wrap around' design (albeit only on the driver's side) used by Chicago Motor Coach/CTA to replace the original factory front bumpers on at least their 5502's.

For some as yet to be determined reason, the lower body panel between the front wheel housing and the bumper on the driver's side on many Old Looks where vulnerable to attack.

A perfect example of such incursion may be seen on Green Line's (NY) 4509 # 319 (page 106 of Martin's 'New York City Transit Buses').

The Chicago 'fix' virtually eliminated such mishaps.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York



Those 'ribbed' design bumpers kind of remind me of the 'anti-climbers' at the ends of subway cars. They look like serious protection.

I like the looks of the '5502. Would have been neat if they ever made a suburban version of it......
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MaBSTOA 15



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Seattle TDH-5105s did not have emergency doors.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA 15 wrote:
The Seattle TDH-5105s did not have emergency doors.



MaBSTOA 15,


There were numerous fleets that ordered GM Old Look transits without emergency doors and the windows in place of those doors were openable as seen on United Motor Coach #150 below.

Apparently, it may have been required in some states and not in others - all transit buses sold to New York operators were required to have them.

Photo borrowed for educational purposes only.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'



Last edited by Mr. Linsky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Post Script regarding emergency doors;

No matter which way you look at it, emergency doors were certainly more costly than just a window when you consider the fabrication of the door itself, the mechanical locking mechanisms and the wiring required to the dashboard for special buzzers and indicator lights to monitor the condition of the door.

It may be that some operators in states where the feature was not required opted out due to the additional cost - a decision that I think not to have been very wise!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'
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NorthShore



Age: 70
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
Through a little trickery that I learned in the Orient some years ago, I was able to transfer the photo.

What surprises me is the fact that the Omnibus Corporation (owner of Fifth Avenue Coach and its affiliates as well as Chicago Motor Coach) ordered these 5502's without emergency doors because, to my knowledge, the hundreds upon hundreds of other Yellow and GM products that they bought through the years did have them.

Also of note in the attachment is the custom semi wrap around front bumper (semi, because it wraps only on the driver's side as can be seen on 5502 # 579 in the lower frame) - these bumpers were not original and were fabricated by the company in Chicago with ribbing to deflect damage.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'


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NorthShore



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chicago Motor Coach's square window old looks did not have emergency exit doors either.
CMC buses also carried Federal I.C.C. numbers.
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frankie



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The is a great subject if you look at this in the name of safety. However, I doesn't bother me if these buses had an emergency door or not. As long as I can kick out windows to escape in case of an emergency, I'm all right with this.

What does bother me were buses (not just GM's) that used window bars. While these were prevalent mostly is southern states, they were most common with pre-paired windowed old looks. The photos below show two Miami old looks showing what I call "extreme" barring of the windows. I call these "death traps". However, most windows have two or three bars. Some companies also used half-window width sceens from front to back, but bar are the most common. Of course window bars were widely used from the early days of buses especially cross country coaches - Greyhound included.

It wasn't until that fateful day in Chicago back in May 1950 when a "Green Hornet" trolley collided with a fully loaded gasoline truck that took the lives of 34 people - many trapped inside the trolley with no way to escape. Fortunately many did. One of the major contributions to the death were the window bars that were common on PCC's and other trolleys across the country at that time. This was the turning point for new regulations with many transit companies that banned window bars with future orders - including buses. Chicago changed it's policy immediately after the accident.

Frankie

Top photo credit within the image for educational purposes. Bottom photo via google images



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NorthShore



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately the old looks did not have kick out windows.
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frankie



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NorthShore wrote:
Unfortunately the old looks did not have kick out windows.


This is true, but in an event of a fire, you could still break the glass.

Frankie
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankie & NorthShore,

All of what you gentlemen have said is true, but let me give you one scenario that might just alter the picture a bit on GM Old Looks;

In a situation where a bus without an emergency door winds up overturned with the curb side to the ground and many of the passengers injured, don't look to any of them as capable of breaking glass which, by the way, would not have been easy because those panes, which were shatter proof, and their frames were pretty tough!

Conversely, emergency workers would have to use extreme care in breaking any glass from the outside in order to prevent further injury to those inside the bus.

As far as Frankies photos above; those bars are absolute overkill aside from reminding me of prison buses!

Shown below is Charleston, West Virginia #117 in delivery convoy from the factory in 1940 with a somewhat less confining screening of the passenger windows but, as you will note, these buses had emergency doors (and #117 also had a flat rear tire which has no relevance!).

Also note the magnetized manufacturers delivery plate on the front bumper which also has no relevance!

BTW; the Charleston order seen below (TD-3201's) was the first delivery ever in the 'Old Look' design.

Photo courtesy of GM Photographic.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

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MaBSTOA 15



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where Miami over did it; NJ Public Service under did it. I don't understand what was the reasoning behind the bars on their TDH-4512/5106... Some windows had them others did not on the same bus.

BTW, when Palm Beach acquired some of the Miami buses, in deplorable conditions, PB removed the bars!
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