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'EMERGENCY DOORLESS GM OLD LOOKS'
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Mr. Linsky
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:41 am    Post subject: 'EMERGENCY DOORLESS GM OLD LOOKS' Reply with quote

In all of my experience in dealing with GM 'Old' Old Look buses (that's the ones with square windows built from 1940 to 1950) and GM 'New' Old Look buses (that's the ones with paired windows built from 1948 to 1959) I was always automatically under the impression that they all had emergency doors as I believed were mandated by both federal and state regulation.

While there is no evidence thus far that any Old Old Looks came through without escape doors, there certainly were New Old Looks delivered sans an emergency passenger egress.

In thumbing through Luke's 'Old Look Buses - Yellow and GM 40's and 50's' I found no less than three examples one of which - a 1950 TDH 4509 flagged for United Motor Coach of Des Plaines, Illinois - is shown below.

The 'tip-off' for the astute bus watcher is the fact that the single window where the emergency door should be is framed in aluminum (as seen below) and capable of opening which, of course, would not be possible with a door (all emergency door windows were sealed and encased with black rubber gaskets).

My question is this; what was Denver Tramways Corporation (the company that United Motor Coach bought # 150 and two siblings from) thinking when they ordered 85 of these buses without emergency doors?

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr 'L' -

Dates, dates? The provision may not have been in ILLINOIS CODE. The law itself surely must have been changed,
following the May 1950 Tragedy of a collision between a gasoline tanker and a Chicago PCC Car?

http://www3.gendisasters.com/illinois/1066/chicago,-il-street-car-gasoline-truck-wreck,-may-1950

.....................Vern.....................
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 2452
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="HwyHaulier"]Mr 'L' -

Dates, dates? The provision may not have been in ILLINOIS CODE. The law itself surely must have been changed,
following the May 1950 Tragedy of a collision between a gasoline tanker and a Chicago PCC Car?

http://www3.gendisasters.com/illinois/1066/chicago,-il-street-car-gasoline-truck-wreck,-may-1950

.....................Vern.....................[/quote

I don't know if this helps, but it looks like a '59 Rambler and a '58 Buick
in the view....]
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr 'L'- traildriver -

On another, careful read, copy states: "...a 1950 TDH 4509 flagged for United Motor Coach of Des Plaines, Illinois - is shown below..."

I shudda' caught it!

....................Vern..................
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frankie



Age: 77
Joined: 01 Feb 2011
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Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting subject! Ironically, one of the other doorless old looks from Luke's book shows #414 of the Duluth-Superior Transit Company - a secondhand TDH-4509 originally from Denver Tramways that arrived on the property in 1960 - the same group of buses that Mr. L illustrates.

My first thought was that the original TDH-4909s (before reinforcing the post ahead of the rear door) could be ordered with or without the emergency doors, but were probably mandated to be equipped with the doors for the reason that HwyHaulier pointed out due to the Chicago collision in May 1950.

But then I came across the other photo in the book of the Nashville (MTA) Tranist - a 1959 TDH-4512, one of 10 delivered - all sans the emergency door! As Mr. L asked: What were they thinking?

Frankie

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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankie - All Hands -

All I can figure is: Given a Coach in service for INTRA-STATE use only, then State Code prevailed. It had to become
an Emergency Door mandate in Illinois, post the PCC Car Disaster.

I just don't know for fact. That's my best conjecture...

....................Vern......................
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankie,

Those were the three that were obvious in the book (Nashville, United Motors and Duluth).

By the way, your point regarding the roof strengthening program is very interesting because part of the stress problem found on NYC's 102 inch wide 4510's might have been caused by the emergency door being located directly across from the rear passenger door thus weakening the structure.

Interestingly, on pre war Macks the emergency door was located as part of the 'half moon' window at the rear bench seat on the driver's side but that was changed to GM's style in 1947 with introduction of their 'C' series buses.

When I drove there would be an occasional kid sitting at the emergency door that started playing with the lever which we knew right away because we got a buzzer and light on the dashboard if that door was opened - but I wouldn't think that would be a reason to eliminate that life saving feature!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'
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frankie



Age: 77
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Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr L: Here's another interesting observation concerning stress modifications. You mentioned the fact that the emergency doors added to the stress problems with the earlier 4510's that led to the roof strengthening program.

However, have you noticed that no modifications were ever made to the suburban style 4500 series? Those with the taller windows sans standee windows probably never had to be modified and probably wasn't necessary due to the lack of the rear doors.

If you closely through the windows, you can see where the emergency door is located by the lower height of the side window.

Frankie

Photo courtesy of Luke's book on oldlooks for educational purposes

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Q65A



Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
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Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't those DeCamp units good looking buses? To this day, DeCamp buses have sharp looking paint jobs.
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frankie



Age: 77
Joined: 01 Feb 2011
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Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q65A wrote:
Aren't those DeCamp units good looking buses? To this day, DeCamp buses have sharp looking paint jobs.


207 was one of 10 TDH-4509 buses delivered to DeCamp in May 1951. Corgi also made a 1/50 scale model of #190 - one of 6 delivered a year earlier.

The following photos are from my collection. Again, not everything is correct on this bus, but the grace saving feature are the flush window treatment giving this a more realistic look.

Frankie







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buslist



Age: 76
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Lombard IL, Pueblo CO, London UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 'EMERGENCY DOORLESS GM OLD LOOKS' Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
In all of my experience in dealing with GM 'Old' Old Look buses (that's the ones with square windows built from 1940 to 1950) and GM 'New' Old Look buses (that's the ones with paired windows built from 1948 to 1959) I was always automatically under the impression that they all had emergency doors as I believed were mandated by both federal and state regulation.

While there is no evidence thus far that any Old Old Looks came through without escape doors, there certainly were New Old Looks delivered sans an emergency passenger egress.

In thumbing through Luke's 'Old Look Buses - Yellow and GM 40's and 50's' I found no less than three examples one of which - a 1950 TDH 4509 flagged for United Motor Coach of Des Plaines, Illinois - is shown below.

The 'tip-off' for the astute bus watcher is the fact that the single window where the emergency door should be is framed in aluminum (as seen below) and capable of opening which, of course, would not be possible with a door (all emergency door windows were sealed and encased with black rubber gaskets).

My question is this; what was Denver Tramways Corporation (the company that United Motor Coach bought # 150 and two siblings from) thinking when they ordered 85 of these buses without emergency doors?

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York



The 100 CMC 5502 were sans emergency doors although the demonstrator (CMC 500) had one.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/buslist/5247475619/in/set-72157625566353976
Can't get the photo to imbed so just click on the link

Photo from the Mel Bernero collection
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Through a little trickery that I learned in the Orient some years ago, I was able to transfer the photo.

What surprises me is the fact that the Omnibus Corporation (owner of Fifth Avenue Coach and its affiliates as well as Chicago Motor Coach) ordered these 5502's without emergency doors because, to my knowledge, the hundreds upon hundreds of other Yellow and GM products that they bought through the years did have them.

Also of note in the attachment is the custom semi wrap around front bumper (semi, because it wraps only on the driver's side as can be seen on 5502 # 579 in the lower frame) - these bumpers were not original and were fabricated by the company in Chicago with ribbing to deflect damage.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'


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buslist



Age: 76
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Lombard IL, Pueblo CO, London UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:


Also of note in the attachment is the custom semi wrap around front bumper (semi, because it wraps only on the driver's side as can be seen on 5502 # 579 in the lower frame) - these bumpers were not original and were fabricated by the company in Chicago with ribbing to deflect damage.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'




Those bumpers are standard CTA issue of the mid 50's and of course it couldn't wrap around on the door side as the door is right there!

And thanks for the photo credit on the second shot (its mine taken from my web pages).
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about that Gary - it won't happen again.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'
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buslist



Age: 76
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Lombard IL, Pueblo CO, London UK

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
Sorry about that Gary - it won't happen again.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

And of of course "Gary" is the further insult, isn't it?
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