BusTalk

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:30 am Post subject: 'A RAILROAD QUESTION'

Can anyone tell me how an Amtrak train (or any train) from Penn Station in Manhattan manages to get over to the mainland (NJ) for all points south?

I know they don't go through the Lincoln Tunnel nor over the George Washington Bridge and I know of no rail tunnels to New Jersey north of the Path Tubes.

Is it that they go out through the Sunnyside Yards and up to the Hellgate Bridge but then where do they cross the Hudson? (which they must do).

Thanks for an answer.

Mr. 'L'

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

Mr. 'L' -

The answer is with the pair of Hudson River Tunnels, built a century back, for access that made PENNSYLVANIA STATION - Manhattan
possible. With opening of the railroad's Tunnels, it no longer had to terminate its trains at Exchange Place in Jersey City.

Note route between Manhattan and Hoboken, as well as other plant at Sunnyside. It also explains the vital role of the H & M,
connecting Downtown Manhattan, HUDSON TERMINAL with P R R Main Line services...

I try to carefully cite sources. What we have above is a copy of an original P R R Source Document, with its purpose stated in
lower right Legend. (Otherwise, the copy is in "free play" on 'net sites.)

.....................Vern...................

Hankg42 · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:47 am Post subject:

I ride into NY Penn Station each day on New Jersey Transit through these tunnels. They start underground right as Route 3 passes overhead, just west of the Lincoln Tunnel.

Edit: There was recent news made when Gov. Chris Christy of NJ cancelled a project for additional tunnels after about $450 million was already spent, stating that NJ would be stuck picking up any cost over-runs. A lot of commuters were not happy. With only 1 tunnel in and 1 tunnel out, if there is a breakdown, major delays result.

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

Hank -

There are legitimate questions about any actual need for added "PENN STATION" tunnels, anyway. One must
accept as Gospel the ridership projections, and future growth forecasts. The planners often caught at "honest
mistakes" (on orders of magnitude) and downright lying. Much of the work product is downright foolish...

We have a lot of "latest, greatest" Light Rail running, near all not hauling anywhere near project riderships. At
the same time, the suffering locales still need to carry some burdensome, unending subsidy support...

........................Vern.........................

Hankg42 · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:13 am Post subject:

Maybe so, but after a large fare increase, plus cuts in service, NJ Transit riders do feel sort of "dumped on". I don't know about future projections, but I can tell you that the trains on the line that I ride are always full. The cost of driving into Manhattan also keeps the trains highly utilized on weekends when families are heading to the city for entertainment.

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

Hank -

SIGH! One of the troubles in remarking on rampant foolishness? Many users of the wondrous
new computer driven discussions confuse it with "political" diatribe. Nope! Ain't so! Truths are
truths, and non-denominational...

The NY/NJ commute travels are just a long and endless nightmare. It did take down all of the
regional railroads. No money in it. This time, it is all on the taxpayers...

..........................Vern............................

Hankg42 · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:41 am Post subject:

Unfortunately, yes.

My intent was not to criticize or disagree with your post, but was merely to say that ridership (in spite of everything), at least on the surface, appears to be quite high. After I reread my post it did come across more critical than intended. Sorry. Smile

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

Hank -

Oh, No! Classic, "No Harm, No Foul".

The logic problem with the full trains? If they are full, why do they continue to run on discounted rates?

Unfortunately, much of this (with much of the ignorant user audience) immediately runs to vitriolic poli- babble.

Here locally, we have a "Poster Child" Heavy Rail which: Runs on cheap rates. Hauls a "market audience" with way
over average household incomes. Live much too far from work, which has "slurbed" communities fifty (50) or more
more distant from five days a week work stations. And, to cover the endless subsidy, why, the very most poor and
other modestly situated get to pay. Fairness? Where? "Not On My Watch!"

.........................Vern......................

Hankg42 · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:20 am Post subject:

They no longer offer discounted fares on NJT. The "Off Peak Roundtrip" fare went away when the fares went up. My monthly ticket costs $425! Maybe there is a "senior citizen" fare, but I'm not sure. I'm not quite there yet!

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

Hank -

Count the embedded continuing subsidy in the ticket prices, and see what you get for answers?...

Saw a completely foolish Light Rail, which the ambitious seekers of "Free FED Money" are trying to pull off in Madison, WI.
Fare would be two dollars. Subsidy would be an added forty-three (43) dollars per rider!

BAH! Send them over to BMW dealers, and make the notes good! It would be cheaper...

........................Vern.....................

Mr. Linsky · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject:

Look what I started here with just a simple question!

Anyway, thanks for the information boys and keep those comments coming!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

timecruncher · Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:31 am Post subject:

Forget the politics of public transport for a moment (could you imagine the hundreds of thousands of NJT and Amtrak commuters all trying to drive into Manhattan along with the rest of the schleps who drive everyday?).

The Pennsylvania Railroad tubes under the Hudson are two tracks and able to handle a train east and west on them at about 90 second intervals with everyone following every other train on "approach" signals at around 15mph. Any kind of operating anomaly can and does cause a complete failure of this one heavy rail corridor and can potentially disrupt transport in this busiest of rail gateways.

This one tunnel isn't enough with the sheer volume of commuters who come into the city each day. Why so many people? Because mere mortals cannot afford to live in the friggin' city and have to live 50 miles away to be able to afford a decent home!!

*Ahem*

The other railroads out of Jersey that handle commuters used to do it with terminals on the west shore of the Hudson and ferry boats to Manhattan. This included the Lackawanna and Erie, New York Central's westshore lines, Central Railroad of New Jersey and Susquehanna Railroad. Most of these former rail lines are now part of the NJT web of commuter rail lines that now feed into Hoboken Terminal (still served by a weekday ferry) and/or Newark Penn Station, where some trains terminate and require transfer to a downtown train, and some trains can continue across the Meadowlands to the Hudson Tubes.

What I don't understand is why, over the years, another highway bridge or two across the Hudson from south Manhattan was never built. I mean, the city has been a major center of commerce for many, many years and it just seems to me that vehicular access other than the George Washington Bridge and the Lincoln Tunnel would have been built at some time during the past 100 years.

Just sayin'

timecruncher

traildriver · Joined: 26 Mar 2011 Posts: 2458 Location: South Florida

HwyHaulier · Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD

traildriver · Joined: 26 Mar 2011 Posts: 2458 Location: South Florida

Hwy Haulier--
You make some valid points. But the NYC metro area will choke to a standstill (I know---many have the sentiment 'who cares'?), if something is not done to relieve the situation.
Perhaps a cheaper solution would be to build a containership port somewhere on the Long Island coast? Could be served by both ocean-going containerships and/or car floats from the New Jersey railroad container yards for domestic containers....