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U-turns without islands

 
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 858
Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: U-turns without islands Reply with quote

A visit to the northern section of Riverdale Avenue (Bronx) has sparked an interest in bus U-turns made on streets that do not have islands or dividers. Riverdale Avenue was one of Surface Transportations never-a-streetcar routes that originated in the 1920's or 1930's (Bx 1 upwards to about Bx 15). The early buses had a shorter wheelbase. I recall the models in use during World War II, when (if recollection is decent) Riverdale was served by Bx 10A, 10B, and maybe 10C. At West 262nd Street and Riverdale Avenue (destination "City Line") the 10A bus could easily await a gap in traffic and make a U-turn. Isn't that the same procedure for Bx 7 and Bx 10 even now, although the streets are much more busy?
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When the C trolley (nicknamed "Bronx & Van") was bustituted, the replacement Bx20 headed north on Broadway to West 262nd Street, where the C changed poles. The bus would lay over along the northbound curb. About to return south, the driver would await a gap produced by a traffic signal, U-turn and pick up passengers waiting on the southbound curb, at the new bus stop sign. Sixty years later, artics on Bx9 continue the practice.
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When Surface Transportation began to serve Woodlawn with Bx4, the north end had or received a handy off-street layover point that made turning easy.
Joe
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1988 MCI TC40-102A




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Riverdale aka Liberty Lines Express Land

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. The Bx7, Bx10, BxM1, and BxM2 (not the BxM18 since it's only a rush hour peak direction bus) all use a U-turn procedure up there. So does the 8 from Bee-Line which does it the other way since 263/Riverdale Av is its southern terminal.
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Waynejay



Age: 58
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 196
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's interesting about the 263rd-Riverdale location is that (back in the early 90s) I used to see the RTS on the Bx7 and M100 make that turn without in one step. However, when the MCI Classics did this U-turn they'd would have to do a three-point turn or go onto the curb.
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: Bus U Turns Reply with quote

Funny that you fellows should mention bus U-Turns without center islands;

I don't remember off hand, but I'm wondering how Schenck Transportation's (Long Island) forty footers turned around after drop offs at Hillside Avenue and 179th. Street in Jamaica?

Hillside Avenue is pretty wide but I can't imagine them trying that one!

The reason I ask is because there wasn't really any practical way to reverse course without going either all the way down to Jamaica Avenue or back to the Grand Central Parkway service road!

I do remember the Q44's and Q44A's swinging around on Queens Boulevard in Kew Gardens, but that was a whole different story!

Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet" etc.
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Dan




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 35
Location: Staten Island, NY

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The B31 pretty much does the same thing at the east end of Gerritsen Avenue. Most of the streets in Gerritsen Beach are too narrow to be used by buses, hence the U-turn.
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1988 MCI TC40-102A




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Riverdale aka Liberty Lines Express Land

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waynejay wrote:
What's interesting about the 263rd-Riverdale location is that (back in the early 90s) I used to see the RTS on the Bx7 and M100 make that turn without in one step. However, when the MCI Classics did this U-turn they'd would have to do a three-point turn or go onto the curb.

Well the Classics do have a shorter wheelbase. The RTS wheelbase is longer than the one on both the Classics and Orions.
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Waynejay



Age: 58
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 196
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1988 MCI TC40-102A wrote:
Waynejay wrote:
What's interesting about the 263rd-Riverdale location is that (back in the early 90s) I used to see the RTS on the Bx7 and M100 make that turn without in one step. However, when the MCI Classics did this U-turn they'd would have to do a three-point turn or go onto the curb.

Well the Classics do have a shorter wheelbase. The RTS wheelbase is longer than the one on both the Classics and Orions.


Exactly. That said, you'd think that if a RTS can make that U-turn without stopping to make a reverse move then in theory the Classic definitely should've been able to do the same, but I saw many of them doing a three-point U-turn at this location.
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 858
Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replying to Mr. Linsky, who has helped the Bus Talk discussions so much (thank you):
I have a vague, unreliable memory of buses using Kingston Place and Wexford Terrace as a loop to get back onto Hillside Avenue eastbound after a drop-off at 179th Street subway.
Joe McMahon
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Free-transfer



Age: 64
Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 123
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good topic........

I remember Green Bus Lines drivers on the Q-11 that terminated s/b at Liberty, making a U-turn on Crossbay and 107th avenue, by the Esquire Diner. Usually, they waited for a red light, then proceeded through the light, beginning the U-turn from the right lane.

Just before NYC Bus took over...they went just before Pitkin ave. and used the Triangle, where Jerry's auto parts used to be.

Best Regards,
Dennis
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foto_buff



Age: 79
Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waynejay wrote:
1988 MCI TC40-102A wrote:
Waynejay wrote:
What's interesting about the 263rd-Riverdale location is that (back in the early 90s) I used to see the RTS on the Bx7 and M100 make that turn without in one step. However, when the MCI Classics did this U-turn they'd would have to do a three-point turn or go onto the curb.

Well the Classics do have a shorter wheelbase. The RTS wheelbase is longer than the one on both the Classics and Orions.


Exactly. That said, you'd think that if a RTS can make that U-turn without stopping to make a reverse move then in theory the Classic definitely should've been able to do the same, but I saw many of them doing a three-point U-turn at this location.


As I understand it, the rear wheels of RTS also have a slight amount of turning ability, thus assisting the vehicle in negotiating tight turns. The Classic and Fishbowl don't have the feature, thus their larger turning radius.

The all-time champ for tight turns has to be the "Bingham" Mack C-50-DT. I was riding one on a student bus pass in 1956 that got away from the curb after pulling in right behind another Mack on Second Avenue in Manhattan without having to back up - the driver just cut the wheels hard left and eased away of the bus stop.

Regards,
Vince

vsyrek@verizon.net
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vince,

That's interesting, and a fact that I never knew of, concerning the rear wheel steering ability on the RTS's.

The original Kaiser Artic designed in 1946 had a similiar arrangement as, I believe, some more modern Artics do.

You're absolutely correct about the Mack C-50 turning radius; when they parked with steering wheels chocked outward, they almost went perpendicular to the body (I could never get over that!).

The only disadvantage would have been excess tire wear but I suppose the end justified the means!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Jamaica, NY
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GBL Rebel
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 608
Location: Long Island, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to many people to quote---

The RTS does not have any rear steering ability unless the radius rods are shot. The turning radius on the GMC/TMC RTS's is a lot better then that of the Classic. In turn this helped make the saying-- It has the turning radius of a Classic-- for when a steering box was shot on an RTS.

As far as the turn around point on the Q11 moving from 107 ave to Pitkin ave, it wasn't about U-turn room, it was more about not killing someone in the process.

When I have made U-turns with an RTS, it took about 6 lanes. What I do know is, I pissed off a whole bunch of people one night when I only had 4 lanes to do a u-turn. People just don't know what to do when a bus is coming at them in reverse!!
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GBL Rebel wrote:


People just don't know what to do when a bus is coming at them in reverse!!


GBL Rebel,

Do you blame them? (I wouldn't know what to do if I were backing into myself with a bus!) - only kidding!

I'll tell you though, that Vince is right about the Mack C-50 turning radius;

I'll bet they could have made the Q44 turn around at Queens Boulevard and Union Turnpike in one lane instead of two! (but the 5101's didn't do too badly either - great buses!).

It would follow that if the 'Classic' turning radius wasn't so hot than the 'New Looks' couldn't have been much better because all the Classic was was a redressed New Look!

And, if you want to talk about the 4506's and 4507's, we had no turning radius to speak of! (and that was sans power steering!).

Interesting!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Jamaica, NY
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