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'VINTAGE NEW YORK CITY'
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 584
Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for the photos and comments in this thread. On the subject of two-aspect traffic signals, I would note:
1) New York was behind the times, keeping 2-aspect signals when many other cities had long previously introduced red-amber-green.
2) I must offer another stage in the development of two-aspect signals around 1947-1955. I recall signals having no stage of "red-over-green," until maybe 1950. There was a second or two when all four directions had a red. In later years, in imitation of the amber phase, a green would finish with a brief red-green illumination, then red. The red-green illumination served as an amber, that the signal was in the process of changing. I suspect that the simultaneous red-over-green lasted through the 1950's until the three aspect signals were installed everywhere.
----
One reason for my memory on this is that in 1949-1950 I was an 8th grader AAA crossing guard at West 231st Street and Kingsbridge Avenue, given a badge and white sash, and instructed to remind the school mates not to cross before the light turned green. We stood on the curb, did not go into traffic. I think the simultaneous red-over-green appeared after that year. (The kids obeyed the signals, as I recall, giving the AAA guards no hassle.)
Joe McMahon
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ripta42
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

N4 Jamaica wrote:
I suspect that the simultaneous red-over-green lasted through the 1950's until the three aspect signals were installed everywhere.


The two-aspect signals that remained in Ozone Park and Arverne into the 2000s still used red-over-green as the caution phase.
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RailBus63
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion. I remember seeing two-aspect, Red-Green traffic lights somewhere as a kid (Providence? New Bedford?). We didnít have any more of those in the Boston area, but we did have plenty of signals that lacked a separate 'WALK/DON'T WALK' light and would display a simultaneous Red-Amber phase in all directions to indicate that vehicular traffic must stop and pedestrians had the right of way. I don't know if there any of those signals around any longer.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the red over green phase very well, and it seems to me that R4J is correct about the earlier 'all red' interval in New York City.

We should have a universal 'all red' phase today to give pedestrians an absolutely safe passage (even when they're on their cell phones) - I'm not joking about that - it's a very serious problem!

Question; what do you do now when you look in your rear view mirror and see a Toyota behind you? I'll tell you what I do - I get out of the way!

If you want to open a Toyota discussion, I've got some good ideas as to what's causing the problem and it may have to do with cell phones!

Mr. 'L'
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ripta42
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RailBus63 wrote:
Interesting discussion. I remember seeing two-aspect, Red-Green traffic lights somewhere as a kid (Providence? New Bedford?). We didnít have any more of those in the Boston area, but we did have plenty of signals that lacked a separate 'WALK/DON'T WALK' light and would display a simultaneous Red-Amber phase in all directions to indicate that vehicular traffic must stop and pedestrians had the right of way. I don't know if there any of those signals around any longer.


I remember those in North Attleborough; I think they were replaced in the 1990s. Speaking of odd signals in Mass., there are still plenty of flashing greens in the Salem area.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the pages of the bygone 'Bus Transportation Magazine', we glimpse the interior of a very special GM Coach Model TDH 5106 (ser# 919) - an Air Conditioned demonstrator first put into test service in New York in February of that year for the Fifth Avenue Coach Company as fleet number 3100.

The A/C unit duct work can be seen above the standee straps on the starboard side of the bus.

The Omnibus Corporation, parent to Fifth Avenue, boasted that with Air Conditioning, Air Suspension Ride and 'Club Car' seating in the rear, number 3100 was truly the 'Bus of Tomorrow'.

3100 remained with the company in tests until it was officially purchased in August of 1956 and is now preserved as part of the New York City Transit Museum fleet (also see below).

A modified TDH 5103 with Air Conditioning designated as fleet number 3200 was also tested by Fifth Avenue in the same time frame but was returned to GM due to width constraints and was eventually sold to New Orleans Public Service.

3100 exterior photo thanks to the Transit Museum.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY


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HwyHaulier




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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr 'L' -

For myself, I weight a few more points to the flamboyance of #3200. Bit of an irony it went to New Orleans. The paint treatment inspired
adoption by Roy Chalk's, D C Transit System. Tough market! Coaches and streetcars in similar paint proved a show stopper on the
Potomac...

BTW. IIRC, did the DC coaches also have the "Club Car" seating, too...

................Vern...............
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

H.H.,

Actually, the 'Club Car' rear seating on FACCO's 3100 reduced the passenger capacity from 51 to 45.

The key to the answer to your question concerning the seating capacity on D.C.'s 67 Air Conditioned 1958 5105's would probably be found in a close-up shot of the area just to the rear of the front door between the wheel well and the first passenger window where such data is usually posted.

However, I would say that they were probably standard seating merely because it would have been ridiculous to spend the money for a forty foot bus to seat only 45 passengers when the 4512 model would have been perfect in the circumstance despite the fact that is was only 96 inches wide.

Personally, I liked the look of the 3200 better only because they retained the Thermo-Matic intake (albeit sealed) over the destination sign (as seen below).

Regards.

Image courtesy of GM Photographic.

Mr. 'L'

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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here, we find ourselves at the corner of Fifth Avenue and 59th. Street sometime in 1963 or later and, again, we see a marvelous example of New York's finest and most colorful horse drawn carriages ready for its next tour through Central Park.

BTW; these vehicles, the licenses for which have been handed down from one generation to the next, date back to the opening of the park in 1859 and were originally a source of income for many of the families that escaped Ireland's potato famine in 1845.

Now, we must refocus to the background of the image where we see no less that three GM Coaches - two Old Looks and one New - trundling the Avenue (still two way at the time) and all of which flagged for the then new Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transportation Operating Authority (MABSTOA) that replaced Fifth Avenue Coach Company in 1962.

While I'll let the armchair pundits speculate as to the models and origins of the three coaches, I will say that the Old Looks are ex FAACO 5104's or 5106's or a combination thereof, and the New Look also possibly ex FAACO.

On a personal note, this writer was married many years ago at the then Savoy Plaza Hotel which stands just behind the Old Looks.

Image courtesy of eBay.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a rare one!

Pictured in what is probably a posed campaign shot is fleet number 1705 - a 1946 GM Model TD 4506 and one of eighty-seven buses in parts of the 1700 and 1800 series operating for the Omnibus Corporation's Madison Avenue Coach Company subsidiary, and delivered in April of that year.

The war years left most companies strapped for new equipment and the appearance of the TD 4506 at the end of the conflict was a welcome sight. Despite a long labor dispute at GM during the latter part of 1946, 1200 examples were produced with the largest customers being Baltimore, Chicago, Los Angeles and New York.

The Omnibus Corporation alone purchase 326 coaches for all its divisions including Chicago Motor Coach, Fifth Avenue Coach, Madison Avenue Coach, Eighth Avenue Coach and New York City Omnibus.

Madison Avenue Coach Company, incorporated from 1933 to 1951, operated bus service over the former New York and Harlem Rail-Road streetcar lines after they was abandoned in 1935. It was originally controlled by the railroad until 1936 and then by the New York City Omnibus Corporation.

A little trivia; the small globe (which was orange) attached to the lamp post indicated a fire alarm pull box which, in this case, was hidden behind the post and out of sight of the camera.

Photo taken at 98th. and Madison and courtesy of the Library of Congress Archive.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that the Library of Congress received a photo with an erroneous label. It looks to me that the bus is northbound at 98th and Park. I think I see the portal of the New York Central Park Avenue tunnel behind the bus. And I think Madison Avenue is narrower at 98th than the photo suggests. Of course, my impression could be wrong.
Joe McMahon
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ripta42
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're correct; note the buildings on the west side of Park Avenue (right side of picture)

Park & 98th
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentlemen,

I'm not going to disagree with you because my memories of living in New York for nearly sixty years are a bit faded, but I do have a couple of questions;

If it is Park Avenue then where are the New York/New Haven tracks which, at that point (98th. Street) would be just below grade level on their way downward from elevated to the mouth of the tunnel at 96th. Street to Grand Central

I seem to remember that, for several blocks or more north of 96th. Street, Park Avenue auto traffic was confined to either side of the tracks with wire fencing along the railroad perimeter (as seen in the attachment).

There is nothing like that in the 1705 photo - additionally, I believe that Madison Avenue's width does not change north of 96th.

My other question is; what bus company serviced Park Avenue in 1946?

Regards,

Photo courtesy of Wikipedia.

Mr. 'L'

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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to which company served Park Avenue in 1946, my unreliable memory says that there was no north-south bus service on Park Avenue in 1946 between Grand Central Terminal and Harlem. South of Grand Central, at that time the street was called Fourth Avenue, and Madison Avenue Coach may have served it by route 1.
Joe

Link: http://images.nycsubway.org/maps/bus-nycomni3.jpg
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ripta42
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
If it is Park Avenue then where are the New York/New Haven tracks which, at that point (98th. Street) would be just below grade level on their way downward from elevated to the mouth of the tunnel at 96th. Street to Grand Central

I seem to remember that, for several blocks or more north of 96th. Street, Park Avenue auto traffic was confined to either side of the tracks with wire fencing along the railroad perimeter (as seen in the attachment).


The portal is immediately behind the bus. If the photographer were to turn around, he would see the narrow width of northbound Park Avenue and the fence between the roadway and tracks.

One thing I noticed comparing the old photos with the current street view is that the grade of southbound Park Avenue has been changed. The pedestrian bridge depicted at 98th Street no longer exists, but its west abutment does, with the roadway at the bottom of it! The old roadway grade is also evident when you look at the side of 1260 Park Avenue, on the northwest corner of Park and 97th.
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