BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Ahhhh, the way it was.....a SCENICRUISER pulling out of the old GREYHOUND terminal, across from the late, great Penn Station, back in 1955!


Ahhh, if only such timeless scenes were still with us today!

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3333

[Mr. Linsky]

NYO,

Great photo and glad you brought it to the forefront for more than one reason!

Since time immemorial (or at least as long as I can remember) Grand Central Station and Penn Station in Manhattan have been called stations and they are not!

Both are 'terminals'! (in fact, all matter of literature and the etchings in the granite of the building itself declare Grand Central to be a 'terminal').

In electrical parlance the letters E.O.L. mean 'end of line' which is exactly what a railroad 'terminal' is and that is exactly what Pennsylvania and Grand Central are.

A 'station', on the other hand, regardless of its size is merely a stop along the way such as what Jamaica is on the Long Island Railroad.

To confuse the issue a bit further, I found the attached photo of midtown Manhattan circa 1940's showing a sign pointing westward toward 'Penn Depot'.

A depot is generally where you will find passengers and to call Penn or Grand Central a 'depot' I suppose is O.K. but what really bothers me is why the MTA calls their maintenance and storage facilities depots when no passengers ever step foot in them!

Trivial but interesting.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L":

Glad you enjoyed that classic photo.....just came across it today!

Sure takes ya back!

GCT, as you correctly stated, is indeed a "terminal"; in fact, the only "through" tracks were the reversal loops, used for the reversal of incoming, non-MU trains.

With Penn Station, however, it is somewhat "terminal-station" setup, at least in a minor sense; though all 21 tracks feed directly feed into the Hudson River tunnels, this is not the case on the East River end.

Tracks 1-4 stub-end at 7th Avenue, and provide no access at all to the East River tunnels.

This was because, when the original Penn Station was designed, the planners envisioned a fifth and 6th East River tube that would have fed into this part of the facility.

Well, getting back on the subject of buses, it's ALWAYS a most refreshing sight to come across a vintage photo of the old "Penn Station Greyhound" depot when it was still in operation!

How so many of us took it all for granted.....

"NYO"

[traildriver]

Yes, Grand Central Terminal is a terminal, loop tracks regardless. Grand Central Station, is properly the name for the subway station below the terminal.
Pennsylvania Station is a proper use, as there are thru trains enroute from Washington to Boston stopping there enroute, entering from the west, and exiting to the east, and vice versa.

Thanks for that link to the photo of the Pennsylvania Greyhound Terminal. I have seen a few other photo's of that terminal from earlier times with older buses online.
What I have not seen are any photo's of the old Capitol Greyhound Terminal on 50th street between 8th avenue and Broadway. Anyone have a link to that?

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Grand Central "STATION", I agree, is more appropriate for the IRT Lexington Avenue line station which connects to Grand Central, than the railroad station itself, again, actually a TERMINAL.

Regarding GREYHOUND's old facility adjacent to the old Pennsylvania Station:

According to "THE GREYHOUND STORY", by Oscar Schisgall, GREYHOUND's two NY terminals (the one opposite Penn, and the other at 50th), were fast becoming inadequate, and the company was seeking to build a new, larger, more convenient facility further east.

However, the City not only objected, but it also passed a law making it illegal to construct such a building east of 8th Avenue.

However, GREYHOUND did gain the right to build a large, modern garage on W. 40th, between 11th and 12th Avenues.

From "HOUNDS OF THE ROAD", by Carlton Jackson, one learns that GREYHOUND wanted to consolidate its 34th St, 50th St, 45th St, and Long Island City operations into a new facility on 34th St, price tag: $10 million.

This new terminal was to have been equipped twenty-two passenger platforms, with the buses entering via 34th and leaving by 33rd.

Also, one of the reasons why the City denied GREYHOUND building the new depot, was that, had the go-ahead been given, then TRAILWAYS, and every other bus line in the area would have all been clamoring for similiar benefits.

[Mr. Linsky]

NYO,

"However, the City not only objected, but it also passed a law making it illegal to construct such a building east of 8th Avenue".

Your quote above is interesting and I have no doubt as to its validity but, as they say, politics makes strange bedfellows and before long we had the East Side Airline Terminal at First Avenue and the Port Authority Bus Terminal on Eighth Avenue with the latter of which, more than adequately meeting Greyhounds needs at the time.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L":

A good and timely point, indeed!

"Politics making for strange bedfellows"?

Without a doubt!

Another interesting snippet from "HOUNDS OF THE ROAD":

"......the NY PORT AUTHORITY strenuously opposed the plan (of building a new, consolidated GREYHOUND terminal), and maintained that all bus lines who had previously agreed to use the new PABT did soon the condition that the city not authorize any new terminals east of 8th Avenue......"

NYO

Also, when GREYHOUND finally did move into the PABT, it was given a premier position in the terminal. Too, it had the first set of ticket windows as one entered from 8th Avenue.

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

From "HOUNDS OF THE ROAD":

"......if all inter-city buses used just one tax-supported facility (as is the case of New York's Port Authority Terminal), instead of seperate units, bus travel would be more cost effective....."

[HwyHaulier]

NYO - Et. Al. -

Note the photo is C 677. The earlier "Alphabet Soup" equipment identification. The "C" denoted Central Greyhound Lines,
earlier the N Y C RR alter ego. Bonus Points!...

Photos, and so on, of 50th Street? This one, "...got no respect..." from the photogs. Haven't seen much, if any, at the locale.

The Jackson reference to the GL Grand Plan new Station in New York. The way the sources phrased, it doesn't settle issue
whether GL ever had a relocation of Long Island City (Sunnyside) Shops, Garage and Storage Yards in mind. Seems to me
(or IMHO) it would have been a tad silly, and expensive, besides...

.......................Vern.....................

[HwyHaulier]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Vern......

There MAY be a photo of the old 50th Street facility on that one "Greyhound Memories" site, but, recall, for all of the many hundreds of rare photos there, the links are, almost overwhelmingly, ANGELFIRE links, which, as you have pointed out in the past, presents quite a headache for non-AOL users!

The several photos I've seen on the 'net of the GREYHOUND facility opposite Penn have been those dating to the 1930's; the 1955 photo seen at the start of this thread is, AFAIK, the only one I've seen thus far of a "modern day" view.

Exterior (platform area) of this long-gone depot was briefly seen in "THAT TOUCH OF MINK" (1963), with a couple of 4104's in attendance.......

NYO

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

[HwyHaulier]

NYO -

Trifling Side Note? Gee, it would be nice if the Angelfire work all migrated to a more easily accessible 'Net site.
Recall, when Randy was active, anyone could get at STRAYHOUND...

AOL wants to act too much like a proprietary Secret Society. How the mighty have fallen! No, dreams of Steve
Case notwithstanding, AOL can't rule the world!

Just above, ref. Jackson. He footnoted and sourced everything! There has to be a footnote for original source!

..........................Vern.......................

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Vern.........

Agreed!

If only the photo archives on the aforementioned site were to be put on a more "user friendly" site!

Far too many rare, vintage views to let go to waste!

STRAYHOUND?

Oh, man, don't get me started!

That site, truly, was the "Holy Grail" for legions of dedicated Hound historians and enthusiasts!

The void it left seemingly will never be filled, unless, by some major miracle, someone brings back STRAYHOUND from the Land Of The Lost.....

NYO

*Footnote to aforementioned quote from "HOUNDS OF THE ROAD"?

Only info I can glean is that quote was taken from interview with Mr. James Kerrigan (February 23, 1981), and, also, that more terminals were built under Mr. Kerrigan than any other past or succeeding presidency.............

[HwyHaulier]

NYO -

Thanks! I can't recall "Doc Rushing" thinking about Kerrigan. In any event, he did get much done while the line in his stewardship.
The probing question, which may remain without reply: "...Are you saying you also wish to move the LIC Shops and Garage complex?..."

Myself, if it was up to me, I wouldn't have done it. Can't see where the numbers could possibly work. Besides, all the bickering
with the Union guys wherein they just may not have wished to begin to commute to and from Manhattan. In New York, it was wise
to heed the complaints! (See works of, or call Martin Scorsese!)

You know, all much of it was (apparently) with Randy? He needed on site help! Wish he had sent out an alert. He coulda' scammed
the local college with an "intern" slot to learn internet and website management. (That means a lot of drudge work of sourcing and
captioning lots of old photos!) Some eager young kids might have been eager to get at it.

.......................Vern...................