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Air France Jet Disappears over Atlantic in T-storms
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Dieseljim
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Joined: 26 Jun 2008
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Location: Perry, NY

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject: Latest Update on AF447 Reply with quote

The latest update has a Spanish Airline pilot reporting that he saw a large white streak of light plunging toward the ocean,which seems to me, that the aircraft alreay broke up in midair and the pieces began plunging into the ocean. It seems to me, that everything hit the fan all at once before the crew could do anything about it. To me, this is tragic proof that thunrderstorms are nothing to fool with, no matter how stoutly a modern jet aircraft is built. If caught in one of these, that aircraft is going to get torn apart in midair one way or another or end up landing with such heavy damage that it will become a hangar queen. Provided it reaches an airport.
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim -

See updating reports as of this a.m. At this point, as there is so little verifiable data, we're getting numerous possible hypotheses
and tentative working theories...

Couple days back, Weather Channel aired some discussion that Equatorial storms are of a different character, and usually nowhere
nearly as treacherous than those in zones to the North and South.

..................Vern...............
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Mr. Linsky
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Developments as of this date;

The debris field spotted in what has been thought to be the vicinity of the crash site may not be from Air France flight 447 - the content of the floating oil slick matches no lubricant or fuel base used on a jet aircraft, and the odd pieces of what were thought to be fuselage material may be from a ship.

Additionally, Accu Weather meteorologists have concluded that the weather in the alleged crash area was relatively calm with any violent conditions about 150 miles away.

It has also been suggested, in view of what could be flight recorders that will never be retrieved, that such instruments should now be made tougher and uplink information to satellites continuously on every flight from takeoff to landing.

I don't think there is any problem with the strength of present day device enclosures - fully, 99 % or more have been captured inact and their digital information safely decoded.

The installation of uplink devices would be extremely expensive for airlines and would certainly be offensive to the Air Line Pilots Association who would reject the 'big brother is watching' concept.

I think my idea as explained below would be the cheapest and most logical solution;

In view of the difficult, if not impossible task, of retrieving the flight data recorders from Air France 447, I think it may be time to take technology up a notch!

If we can send commands to and retrieve information from exploring robots 35 million miles away on Mars, why can't these earthly flight recorders be redesigned to send their entire data base upon demand from a distance that would never be more than five miles or so away?

Now, I'm not much into electronics nor do I have any idea as to how radio signals behave in deep water but it seems to me that if whales can remain in contact over far greater distances, it shouldn't be that difficult to establish a link with a wayward recorder!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr "L" -

You are right, of course! OK. So the carriers "trick up" the electronics to maintain a steady "call home" data stream? What's new?
Why worry over ALPA hurt feelings?

Over the road truck drivers, today, and in a neighborhood near you and me, put up with much more when assigned to equpment
with the ever present GPS gadgets. The drivers don't enjoy the nice pay scales of the "heavy" aircraft gentlemen, either...

.........................Vern......................
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shortlineMCI



Age: 54
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appologise if this has been said before in one of the above posts, but an interview done by a retired Delta airline pilot ( I think it's Delta) was saying that infact storms do pop up on the radar screen in red (as puffs) and sometimes the pilot can weave his way through them, but being the plane was flying near the equator and the storms there are unusually violent the pilot can find himself suddenly and totally engulfed inside of the red zones and the turbulence becomes more than the aircraft can handle.

The aircraft will break up. THe pax will become unconscious within 30 seconds. Long before they hit the water.
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Flight 447 Possible Breakup Reply with quote

You hit the nail right on the head. A break up of the aircraft in flight was exactly what I figured happened given the violent weather conditions it was flying into and the fact that there was a sudden loss of cabin pressure, which, in itself suggested a break up. At least it is not the DeHavilland Comet I, whose airframe structure was too week for the speed that aircraft was flown at to begin with.
shortlineMCI wrote:
I appologise if this has been said before in one of the above posts, but an interview done by a retired Delta airline pilot ( I think it's Delta) was saying that infact storms do pop up on the radar screen in red (as puffs) and sometimes the pilot can weave his way through them, but being the plane was flying near the equator and the storms there are unusually violent the pilot can find himself suddenly and totally engulfed inside of the red zones and the turbulence becomes more than the aircraft can handle.

The aircraft will break up. THe pax will become unconscious within 30 seconds. Long before they hit the water.
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shortlineMCI



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed very sad.
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Mr. Linsky
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll tell you what's sad!

The 'cardboard' tail on 447 broke off in exactly the same way as did the American flight over Rockaway in 2001 (cardboard - composite - same junk and 'glued' on to boot!).

That was what turned me off Airbuses!

But, if you think that's something, if they do find the transponders, they may not be attached to the recoders!

The transponders that issue pinging signals for up to thirty days in what the manufacturer says could be from depths of twenty thousand feet or more are small cyliners about an inch and a half in diameter and some eight inches long, and are little more than 'strapped' to the recorders (not intergral parts thereof!).

More 'good' news later.

Mr. 'L'

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shortlineMCI



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See? Another reason to buy American. I don't mean the airline either. Jee. Boeing never had these problems? eh?
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
...The 'cardboard' tail on 447 broke off in exactly the same way as did the American flight over Rockaway in 2001 (cardboard - composite - same junk and 'glued' on to boot!)...

Mr "L" -

Ah! Exactly! A shared concern!

The NTSB Report of the AAL disaster in 2001 is not at all comforting when it discusses the structural issues. All the more reason there is
much urgency in recovery of as much as they can from the present 447 site...

I also remain with the belief it will be located, very likely thanks to US technology aboard our Navy aircraft and vessels...

...............Vern.............
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RailBus63
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
I'll tell you what's sad!

The 'cardboard' tail on 447 broke off in exactly the same way as did the American flight over Rockaway in 2001 (cardboard - composite - same junk and 'glued' on to boot!).

That was what turned me off Airbuses!


shortlineMCI wrote:
See? Another reason to buy American. I don't mean the airline either. Jee. Boeing never had these problems? eh?


The design of the Boeing 777 uses composite materials in the airframe, and the new 787 Dreamliner will also make extensive use of composites.
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ripta42
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

airsafe.com lists over 150 crashes involving Boeing 7xx aircraft since 1965 (3.4 per year), and only 28 involving Airbuses since 1976 (0.85 per year).
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that statistic might be a bit lopsided at best!

At any given time (over the past 33 years) how many Boeings have been aloft as opposed to the number of Airbuses?

Give me a break!

Mr. 'L'
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting paragraph (below) taken from an article about Air France 447 in today's L.A. Times.

The flight laws that Airbus programs into its computers embrace a fundamentally different approach to flying than those used by Boeing, which gives humans far greater authority to fly the plane, according to a wide range of pilots interviewed by The Times.

The total inability for Airbus pilots to fly 'by the seat of the pants' in certain unpredictable situations has been and still is of great concern to the industry.

This point was initially touched upon by Boeing engineers when Airbus first announced its completely automated concept years ago.

We really don't know yet what happened in the cockpit in the nanoseconds prior to the crash, and whether even full pilot control might have prevented the disaster, but it certainly enters the picture as a possibility that has to be examined more closely by Airbus.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr 'L' -

Thanks! I was asleep at the switch when I read the factoids, of sorts, about the Boeing and Airbus airframes. A more meaningful figure is (umm)
incidents per one hundred million miles flown.

As far as the mentality of, automate all of it, and nothing can go wrong. Sounds eerily Teutonic. Hardly a surprise when one considers the "who"
of the Airbus consortium.

Boeing has long experience, and learned the hard way, a rather Biblical kind of caveat: "A time to fly by seat of the pants, and a time not to fly by
seat of the pants."
Absent hours at the controls, the early experience with the B-727 quickly established it could be a nasty aircraft. (Years back,
I worked in South Chicago. None of us there have forgotten the day the B-727 passed, and we remarked it seemed low. Calamitous landing
in a school yard, short of Midway!)

...................Vern...............
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