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Air France Jet Disappears over Atlantic in T-storms
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Air France Jet Disappears over Atlantic in T-storms Reply with quote

Air France lost one of their planes out of Brazil for Paris over the Atlantic this morning, reportedly in thunderstorms and heavy turbulence.Did you know that Air France once got tagged with the nickname AIR CHANCE due to a rash of accidents they were having in the late 1950s-early 1960s. If this flight broke up in mid air over the Atlantic, don't count on anyone being found alive. Unlike the Hudson River, a ditching in the Atlantic Ocean would be a whole new ball game, assuming the aircraft does not break up when it hits the water. The captain of this craft has far less experience than USAirways" Captain Sullenberger, who made that successful splash landing we all saw on the news.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just wondering if the rudder didn't fall off this Airbus just like the one did in the wake of a 747 over Rockaway just after 9/11.

I get very nervous when I fly on an Airbus - let me tell you!

Mr. 'L'
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:20 pm    Post subject: Missing Air France Jet Reply with quote

If the thunderstorms were strong enough, the aircraft being torn apart in mid air would be a strong possibility.
Mr. Linsky wrote:
I'm just wondering if the rudder didn't fall off this Airbus just like the one did in the wake of a 747 over Rockaway just after 9/11.

I get very nervous when I fly on an Airbus - let me tell you!

Mr. 'L'
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HwyHaulier




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Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
...I'm just wondering if the rudder didn't fall off this Airbus just like the one did in the wake of a 747 over Rockaway just after 9/11...

Mr. "L" -

As I started hearing more particulars, the thought also crossed my mind...

Meanwhile, the near useless, on screen TV News as pop entertainment, quickly went to silly and irrelevant. In at least one report,
the talking head was making comparisons of apples and oranges tragedies. The sole issue on point is the incidents involving this
particular aircraft type. The writers, providing the scripts to the talking heads, ought to prepare copy more carefully...

Investigative protocols to recover wreckage likely even more daunting than the case with TWA 800. With this one, all the more
difficult to recover anything at all? As catastrophic airframe failure a very real possibility, a valid investigation is surely needed...

....................Vern................
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:55 am    Post subject: The Loss of AF447 Reply with quote

After hearing about the mention of loss of cabin pressur, especially at that altitude (35,000 ft), I surmised that the aircraft had to have been torn apart in midair by the violence of the weather it was flying through. What the hell was that crew thinking in light of the weather conditions so prevailant in that part of the world? I believe the ferocity of the weather they flew into was underestimated. I hope I am wrong. This is one more reason for the AIR CHANCE moniker sometimes attached to Air France. Back in the 50s and 60s, they werre notorious for a rash of accidents involving their planes. If that model Airbus has some sort of major design flaw in it, that aircraft never should have received an FAA certificate until it was corrected. Remember the Tell City, Indiana incident when a Northwest Electra was torn apart in part by the turbulence in addition to problems with the outboard engine mounts? Air France could be up against a similar situation here.
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Hart Bus



Age: 68
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
I'm just wondering if the rudder didn't fall off this Airbus just like the one did in the wake of a 747 over Rockaway just after 9/11.

I get very nervous when I fly on an Airbus - let me tell you!

Mr. 'L'


WCA: Sadly you are mixing up two different aircraft tragedites that occured in the New York Area.

The 747 was TWA Flight 800 that crashed over the Atlantic Ocean out near Shirley Long Island. The plane that crashed in the Rockaways was American Airlines flight 587. an Airbus 300.

ECA
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HwyHaulier




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ECA -

I read Mr "L"'s statement as correct. Seems to me that in the AA 587, Airbus disaster, we heard of a causality of turbulence created
in wake of an immediately earlier departure of a 747...

Note, I mentioned TWA 800, largely because of the deep water recovery problems. In addition, some locals here with tragic losses
in their own families.

In other incidental comment on facts. Jim, I am not at all sure which agencies issue airworthiness certificates on aircraft which do not
serve the US. Surely, an FAA certificate is good as gold, but likely not a factor on an aircraft that may not have assignments in and
out of US air space. (Of course, I can't second guess the operating carrier. Most any line, though, prefers equipment that may serve
any point in its system.)

....................Vern...............
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:20 pm    Post subject: Aircraft Certification Reply with quote

Even though the French do their own evaluation and certification of new aircraft types, as do other countries their own, our FAA still has to look at them if the owning carriers anticipate operation in and out of US air space at some point in the plane's lfe. Given that most planes in Air France's fleet are used systemwide, including routes to and from the US and Canada, the FAA still has to look at the planes in addition to the French authorities. An aircraft operated strictly inside of France's borders would be strictly a French matter. That the Air France flight was cruising at over 500 mph was puzzling, given the turbulence encountered. There is a much slower turbulence penetration speed that should be observed to prevent the kind of violence that evidently broke up Air France Flight 447.
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RailBus63
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is still too little information to speculate on what happened or what actions the crew did or did not take. News reports have noted that other aircraft passed through the same turbulence without incident.
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:04 pm    Post subject: AF Flight 447 Reply with quote

Be that as it may, it seems to me that those other aircraft would have had to reduce their flying speed to what is called TURBULENCE PENETRATION SPEED, which is designed to give the occupants a smoother ride and save considerable wear and tear on the airframe as well as other safety reason. It seems to me that a fool would keep his speed up when flying into turbulent conditions, just like I would be a fool to try to drive 55 on a road that is a sheet of ice in winter time.
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recovering the remnants of TWA flight 800 was a walk in the park compared to what awaits them with Air France flight 447.

The key, of course, is the black boxes without which they may never know what happened, and they could be as deep as fifteen to twenty thousand feet below the surface.

However, if they were able to retrieve a dinner plate from the Titanic dining room at 12,000 feet, I don't see a big problem here!

Interestingly, pilots flying over the scene immediately after the crash noted fires on the water which could mean that the aircraft was burning before impact and could signal an on board explosion.

Only one of thousands of possible scenarios to think about!

Mr. 'L'
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Hart Bus



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HwyHaulier wrote:
ECA -

I read Mr "L"'s statement as correct. Seems to me that in the AA 587, Airbus disaster, we heard of a causality of turbulence created
in wake of an immediately earlier departure of a 747...

Note, I mentioned TWA 800, largely because of the deep water recovery problems. In addition, some locals here with tragic losses
in their own families.

In other incidental comment on facts. Jim, I am not at all sure which agencies issue airworthiness certificates on aircraft which do not
serve the US. Surely, an FAA certificate is good as gold, but likely not a factor on an aircraft that may not have assignments in and
out of US air space. (Of course, I can't second guess the operating carrier. Most any line, though, prefers equipment that may serve
any point in its system.)

....................Vern...............


Vern, not to "pick a nit" or nit pick with you, I think our eyes are starting to fade as we get older. If you carefully read Mr. L's comment about the rudder he says that this current tragedy may have something to due with the rudder just like the one that happened to the 747 over the Rockaways

The Rockawy acciident on the Airbus running on AA 587 was a rudder problem.

TWA 800 exploded over Shirley Long Island. That plane was a 747 and never a mention of a rudder problem.

Alan
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HwyHaulier




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan -

All right! Perhaps the comment from Mr "L" may have benefited from a comma, between Airbus and just. On the other hand, I can recall
a cruel instructor of writing who likely would claim it a needless usage...

Or, I read it that a 747 had left town from JFK. The AA 587 did the same, at a rather tight interval behind the 747. The trouble with the
analysis, of course, is that many readers knew that already. In turn, it does tend to color the possible interpretation of the statements
of fact. Note the explicit modifier, ...did in the wake of a 747...

Bear in mind that some years back, I sent a rate quote letter to a very good Chinese account. By a careless use of one comma, client
benefited from a rate much lower than our intent. Some months later, in an appearance before the customer, they explained they knew
of the problem, and had turned into something of a business ethics test. We delivered on what we had promised, although in error. The
client relieved us of the error. They said had we tried to take it back on our own, it would have withdrawn the business. The Principle of
"You Never Know!"? To this day, I'm touchy about use of commas! <G>

......................Vern................
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In view of the difficult, if not impossible task, of retrieving the flight data recorders from Air France 447, I think it may be time to take technology up a notch!

If we can send commands to and retrieve information from exploring robots 35 million miles away on Mars, why can't these earthly flight recorders be redesigned to send their entire data base upon demand from a distance that would never be more than five miles or so away?

Now, I'm not much into electronics nor do I have any idea as to how radio signals behave in deep water but it seems to me that if whales can remain in contact over far greater distances, it shouldn't be that difficult to establish a link with a wayward recorder!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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HwyHaulier




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr "L" -

Consider the possibility the technology already well known? A dilemma about just how much detail to put out for public consumption?

In this one, the US is an on the spot hero and aide. There is a USN P-3 running surveillance patrols in the area. My own feeling it is quite
capable in delivering a great deal of data. Rather an admirable course of conduct here...

..................Vern..............
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