BusTalk

[Dieseljim]

By now, many of you have heard about the tragedy at Buffalo,NY about Continental flight 3407 going down at Clarence Center,NY on approach to Buffalo-Niagara International Airport, which brings me to the question of what the hell was Continental thinking in continuing to fly a turboprop aircraft that is highly susceptible to icing in the kind of weather we had last Thursday night much as American Eagle's ATR's were. In my book, this is one more example of corporate greed run amok. Cut corners even if it means playing Russian Roulette with people's lives. 50 people died needlessly because of this nonsense that has turned the airline industry into a virtual cesspool of greed, corruption,and downright recklessness. Here we have an aircraft that is highly susceptible to inflight icing no matter how potent the equipment is and a crew relatively inexperienced in the operation of the aircraft. This is one hell of a contrast from the Miracle on the Hudson over a couple weeks ago, where everyone survived. At Buffalo, NY there were NO survivors. Being asociated with the fire service in some way, I can understand what the responders rushing to help where it turned out there was no one to help Thursday night. Moreover, it seems to me that many of the CEOs running the nation's airlines have no business being in those jobs. The airline business needs someone who KNOWs the business, NOT a bunch of Wall STreet cokeheads. My god, how the hell many people have got to die before this industry comes to its senses. And this was in my neck of the woods for heaven's sake. Where are Bob Crandall, Bob Six, CR Smith W.A. Patterson when the airline industry needs giants like those men?

[HwyHaulier]

Dieseljim -

I've been following this with much interest. All the more so, as my late Dad was a long time career hand with the aircraft builders...

The turboprop aircraft, per se, is not at fault. It is the matter of what aircraft used. The so called, efficient wing design on the lost aircraft is a
bit too spooky for me. Is there really enough of a margin in the total swept area of the design?

Compare, years back, Frontier Airlines ran a large, regional system based at Denver (high altitude) hub throughout its notoriously bad weather
service area. The aircraft of choice was the remodeled Convairliner designs, using the latter CV-440 Turbo Prop variant (good websites show
up on search). There was also a great Japanese "knockoff" of the same general design. It, too, was a reliable performer with other operators...

Beats me exactly what went sour over Clarence. It was not good. Best to keep up with what NTSB determines in its exhautive work...

..................Vern...........

[Dieseljim]

That would be a Convair 580, which had Allison turboprops nearly identical to those used on the L188 Electra and C130A Hercules transports. I flew on one of Allegheny's once and thought it was a nice plane.Those converted to Rolls Royce Dart turboprops like those on the Viscount and the Japanese NAMC YS11 twin turboprop (flown by Piedmont Airlines), would be Convair 600 for 240s so converted and 640s for 340s so converted. The Rolls Royce Dart had some nasty vices of its own. If the aircraft so powered should hit rough air, one engine would be likely to shut down, with a blocking device preventing the other from following suit. With two four engine airplanes with this engine, the Viscount and the DeHavilland Argosy, things could get a bit dicey, especially after take off- put thiese birds in rough air and all four engines are likely to shut down. United operated Capital's entire Viscount fleet until they retired them about 1970. Air Canada had Viscounts AND Vanguards (Tyne powered). Hawaiian had Convair 600 turboprop conversions before they went to DC9s. Here in the States alone there were quite afew Rolls Royce dart powered airliners. Even they would be a big improvement over some of the crap put in the air today.

[HwyHaulier]

Dieseljim -

Here, you'll like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdP83gbP7vk

Otherwise. Let's not forget Western Airlines, back in the days when the 707 and 720 types starting getting into place. There was a long period
when some of the rougher WAL routes, say, MPLS - Billings, held down by Lockheed Electras. After the early disasters, and the builder cleaned
up the aircraft's act, it was steady and reliable. Later, the Electra aircraft displaced by 737s...

"Web" is a Convair treasure trove. I located a Netherlands site, guy has it up as a tribute to his Dad's work. Anyway, affectionate review of the
various Convairliner aircraft...

........................Vern.......................

[Hart Bus]

While there is certainly enough blame to spread around here, lets not forget those who died.

May all those victims Rest In Peace !

[Dieseljim]

Amen to that. Let the lawyers sort the blame game out. God bless their souls.

[Dieseljim]

In the aftermath of Flight 3407 near Buffalo,NY last month, and that American Eagle ATR crash in Indiana some several years back, it seems to me that the anti icing defenses put on these aircraft are not anywhere near as good as they should be. While I admire the Dash 8 for its jet like cruise performance, it seems that the ice that brought this aircraft down near Buffalo formed in an area of the wing where it was least expected, thus, when the pilots lowered the gear and flaps, the aircraft became impossible to control and down she went, taking a total of 50 lives with her. Replacing pure jets with this generation of turboprops, especially given how poorly some of them seem to have been designed, is tantamount to cutting corners on safety. Moreover, it seems to me that the most financially unstable airlines, such as Continental, to name one, have had a history of cutting corners on safety in the name of cutting costs, and in this case, killing several dozen people in the process. Reports indicate that the area around Buffalo,NY is notorius for in flight icing conditions, and that these conditions brought down a flight with several dozen souls on board is inexcusable. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around. What the hell was the FAA thinking when certifying an aircraft with such a built/designed in booby trap as the tendency to ice up where lease expected (near the wing's trailing edge/flap area)? Even a twin t urboprop Convair 580 would be better flying in these conditions than this new crop of turboprops. I would take an Electra over these flying pieces of junk anyday.Some one must have been very retarded to come up with some of these designs.

[HwyHaulier]

Dieseljim -

In your "tickler file", try to alert us at such time a report issues from NTSB. So far, it has been on the record with its positions critical of
commuter class (smaller) aircraft.

With this particular tragedy (as well as much earlier Indiana disaster) in both instances actual carriers serving as "sub hauler" for larger,
more widely recognized operators.

BTW. On a related safety matter, the LA Metrolink disaster had more press this week. One item in link, follows. News Search on "Metrolink"
gets a lot of hits. http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Metrolink-Demands-Contractor-Remove-2-Employees.html


.................Vern...............

[Dieseljim]

Don't forget the security screening one has to go through to even get anywhere near the aircraft to be boarded. Add to that the replacement of standard sized jets with these smaller regional jets and turboprops and you lose a lot of seats right there. There is also the dropping of flights from the schedule. Not only that, but add to the increasing unreliability of the airlines, their increasingly shoddy serviceing practices. We have an airline industry that has been looted and plundered by executives who not only do not know the business as the likes of American's CR Smith, Bob Crandall, United's William A. Patterson, Continental's Bob Six did, or Eddie Rickenbacher when he ran Eastern, but a bunch of Wall Streeters who were clueless about how the transportation business works, just like a certain woman who managed to destroy Empire Trailways in a few short years.While on the subject of Continental, I hope they, Bombardier and their contract operator get taken to the cleaners over the crash of Flight 3407. Could it be that this generation of turboprops is not as capable of handling icing conditions as the manufacturers claim?

[RailBus63]

[Dieseljim]

I heard about the possibility of pilot error,which adds ammunition to the lawsuits being brought against Continental on the basis that the pilot may not have been adequately trained for the airplane he was flying. If proven, that would constitute negligence right there.

[RailBus63]

[timecruncher]

Wow -- this thread got 'hijacked' into a rant about airline safety, somehow.

The lack of viable options for surface intercity transport was where I thought we were on the subject!

Oh well, I'll chime in on safety procedures with my 2-cents' worth: Railroad engineers will readily admit that if they are faced with a tank truck on a crossing, they will open the throttle wide before ducking below the desktop/bulkhead and whispering a quick 'Hail Mary' in hopes of getting the cab past the ensuing fireball.

A former co-worker of mine (a Metro driver in Cincinnati) was a former PC engineer who encountered this while heading north with an intermodal freight between Cincinnati and Indianapolis in the late 'sixties. This was in the years of Penn-Central, the track was horrible and good for maybe 40mph along the stretch of former Big Four mainline, and he was at the throttle of two or three old E8's with around 50 TOFC cars in tow. PC often used former passenger engines on freights in those years, unable to find enough freight power in operable condition at times.

Anyway, the shiny semi-tanker didn't even pretend to slow down as they 'rounded a bend near Greensburg, IN. Tom says that he had practically tied down the horn rope, saw what was going to happen and yanked the throttle wide open while going through the above-mentioned maneuver. Impact came and went, and when he and his fireman looked up, they could see nothing, so he jumped up and dumped the air, sliding his train to a stop half a mile from impact.

As he climbed down from the cab, it was apparent that they had hit a tanker full of milk enroute to a nearby dairy processing plant. He says he was so angry he practically ran the length of the train to beat the s**t out of the trucker, who was leaning up against the severed cab of his rig, apparently unhurt.

He went on to say that as he approached the guy, cussing like only a railroader can, he noticed that the young trucker had apparently soiled himself and was in shock, unable to move or even react. Pity and instinct took over and he helped his conductor calm the guy down until emergency crews could arrive to take over.

Indeed, it is difficult to imagine how the human mind will react in a life-or-death situation where training and normal reaction are intermingled and discipline generally gets pushed aside.

'Nuff said!

timecruncher

[ripta42]

The five threads on the Continental crash have been combined into this one. Please confine the discussion to this thread.

[Dieseljim]

When Lockheed produced its turboprop Electra airliner in the 1950s, it seems to me that that aircraft brought with it an anti icing and de icing system that was and is far superior to that used on most turboprops flying today. Those pathetic rubber boots applied to the leading edge of the wings on today's turbo props just are not up to the job they are designed to do. In the Flight 3407 hearings coming up this is going to be a topic of conversation. I believe that had the same type system used on the Electra been on the Flight 3407 aircraft, the accident at Clarence, NY might never have happened. The thing to do, as I see it, in icing conditions, get that bird on the ground as quickly and safely as possible.