BusTalk

[BrooklynBus]

Today, November 12, 2008 marks the 30th anniversary of the most sweeping bus route changes to the NYC bus system, the Southwest Brooklyn bus route changes which went into effect in 1978. That date marked the introduction of the new B1 bus route from Bay Ridge to Kingsborough College. Previously it began at 25th Avenue and was routed through Sheepshead Bay Station. (The remainder of the present B1 was numbered the B34.) It also saw the extension of the B4 from 25 Ave to Knapp Street and the rerouting of the B36 from Neptune Avenue to Avenue Z and the discontinuation of the B21. (The special school service to Bay Academy on Neptune Avenue and Shore Blvd from Coney Island is a remnant of the old B36.)

The B11 was extended from 18th Avenue to Rockaway Parkway and later cutback to Brooklyn College. Also, the B50 Flatlands Avenue route (now the B82 after it was combined with the B5) was introduced and the B3 lengthened from 86 Street to Ulmer Park Depot to replace the B4 and B34 along 25 Av. The B49 was rerouted to pass Sheepshead Bay Station to replace the B1. The B74 was rerouted to Surf Avenue and moved back to Mermaid Avenue two months later due to community protest. All this was done on the same day. There was massive confusion at Sheepshead Bay Station for several days due to poor public information and unreadable maps since every route was changed.

I was mostly responsible for these changes, working hard for four years to get it done.

In the late 1980s, changes were made to approximately ten Queens bus routes on the same day. But these changes did not have the same impact as the Brooklyn changes, since many only involved changes to terminal loops at Jamaica.

I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about the Southwest Brooklyn Bus changes. Since most of these ideas did not originate at the TA, but at the Department of City Planning where I was working at the time, it is not even recognized in any NYCT literature listing important dates in New York City Transit History.

[ripta42]

Link to BrooklynBus' page on the changes

(Hope you don't mind...)

[BrooklynBus]

Thanks. I meant to do it myself but wasn't sure if I could do it.

[BrooklynBus]

I want to add a few more notes.

That all the changes I proposed that were accepted are still in effect today unchanged. The only changes that have been made that altered the plan related to modifications made by the TA.

1) I proposed that the B11 be extended from 18th Avenue to Coney Island Avenue (which I later learned had first been proposed in the 1940s). The TA insisted that it go all the way to Rockaway Parkway. The Borough Park and Flatbush communities felt that the route would be too long and suggested Brooklyn College as the terminus. The TA rejected that notion insisting it was either Rockaway Parkway or remain at 18th Avenue. So reluctantly everyone agreed on Rockaway Parkway. Not too many years later, the route was cutback to Brooklyn College for the reliability reasons that everyone predicted but the TA. (In my opinion the extension of the B18 was responsible for the influx of Orthodox Jews into Midwood from Borough Park, although I confess I never predicted that this would happen. Before, Midwood was accessible from Borough Park only on a three bus trip.)

2) The TA insisted on removing bus service from part of Surf Avenue by rerouting the B36 to Mermaid Avenue. After several hundred people from Coney Island organized a demonstration in the streets, the B36 was returned to Surf Avenue three months later.

3) In 1978, I proposed that the B49 operate northbound to Sheepshead Bay Station via the route it has today. The TA disagreed stating it would "disturb the integrity of the route." About five years ago, it was changed to the route I proposed in 1974. The ironic thing is that when it was changed, I no longer liked my idea and preferred the TA routing going north on Sheepshead Bay Road, since I don't believe there is any time advantage anymore to taking the long way around.


So if there is anyone from Operations Planning reading this, I ask you: Why is your department so arrogant refusing to listen to any ideas from someone outside of your department even if that person also works for the TA?

You think you have all the answers, when history shows that many times in the past you have been incorrect and the communities have been right. When you combined the B78 and B40 and eliminated B40 service along St. Johns Place few years ago along with eliminating the B18 and extending and rerouting the B13, everyone attending the public hearing (about 20 people) objected to the plan as proposed, but you made the changes anyway using misleading and distorted statistics, although not a single person agreed with you. That's not to say that the plan did not have some very good elements to it, but you refused to compromise to make it a better plan so that few people would be hurt by the changes. Compare this to the reaction when the old B1 was eliminated in 1978 along Avenue X east of Ocean Parkway, when you received only one letter of protest.

In 2006, I attended the ceremony held to honor employees whose suggestions were accepted by New York City Transit. While some department approved as many as ten or fifteen suggestions that year, Operations Planning approved only one. Wake up Operations Planning. You're not as great as you think you are. There are others who know just as much if not more than you and you should open up your ears and listen to others occasionally instead of always looking for reasons to say "No."

[Dan]

[BrooklynBus]

Actually that map dates from 1924. You will see that if you right click to save it. I have a 1936 trolley map that shows the same thing but it is less clear what is happenning. I believe the route was cut back at the start of the war and the extension was proposed right after the war.

My proposal to extend it to Coney Island Avenue would have had it go along 50th St in both directions (which was two-way then, I think there was no parking along the north side) along Avenue J and return along Avenue I. I never thought of using Foster Ave.

[Dan]

[BrooklynBus]

My 1936 map shows the B8 on Coney Island Av both ways, so East 8th Street may be a mistake. But remember the buses were only about 20 long in 1924 so it is possible. It could have been moved to Coney Island Avenue when they increased the buses to 30 or 35 feet.

It shows the McDonald loop but only one route along 18th Avenue, so there are two possibilities regarding the B11: loop at McDonald, or terminus at 18 Ave and B8 short turn or terminus at McDonald.

I still believe that 50 St was two way in 1978. It is possible that the TA proposed the B11 both ways on 50 St and DOT said no and then converted it to one-way at the same time the B11 was extended.

I just checked my book and it shows that the TA proposed the B11 to use Ave I to Ocean Parkway, then Ave J to Bedford. I remember DOT giving us problems about using Ocean Parkway for the B1 and agreed only if there were no additional stops along Ocean Parkway north of Avenue Z. Till this day there are no stops along Ocean Parkway at Ave X, Y or Z. So it's very possible they also rejected Ocean Parkway for the B11 also but I really don't remember what happened.

Regarding your 1924 map, do you happen to know the eastbound terminus of the Surf Avenue trolley? Just curious.

[Dan]

[BrooklynBus]

It's the eastbound terminus I was questioning. All the maps I've seem make it seem like it's through routed with the Ocean Avenue trolley but I doubt if that was ever the case.

[Dan]

[BrooklynBus]

Thanks. That's what I thought. That means both the 36 and the 49 shared the same terminus. I also believe that what is now the present mall on Shore Blvd (formerly West End Avenue) used to be a dirt lay-up area for the trolleys, presumably for both lines.

[BrooklynBus]

Sorry, I misread what you said. Emmons and Ocean is two blocks away from Shore Blvd and Ocean, so there was an overlap of a few blocks.