BusTalk

[Q65A]

The RTS-04 had been in GM’s transit bus catalog for 4 years before NYC PBL’s were ready to place orders for new buses that were needed fairly urgently. PBL fleets in 1984 consisted of a mixture of GM and Flxible New Look transits of various ages (including some very young GMD Fishbowls), 163 relatively new Grumman Flxible Model 870’s that already were in disrepute, and a group of 37 slope-backed GM RTS-03’s that dated back to 1979-1980. At least 2 PBL’s (Liberty Lines and New York Bus Service) also owned GM “Buffalo Buses” (i.e. P8H-4905A’s) for express bus services operated to Manhattan from Westchester and/or The Bronx. Much as they had done with the purchase of the Model 870’s a few years earlier, NYCDOT helped the PBL’s to acquire new RTS-04’s in 1984-1985. In fact, NYCDOT was considered the actual owner of these buses, which then were assigned to various PBL’s as required. Delivered mostly in 1984 and 1985, the DOT-assisted purchase totaled 278 RTS-04’s: 176 T8J-204’s and 102 T8J-604’s. The 96” wide T8J-604 was a bit of a rarity in RTS-heavy NYC. It was operated only by 3 PBL’s: Command Bus Co., Queens Transit Corp. and Steinway Transit Corp. In contrast, the TA/OA (and most of the PBL’s) only operated 102” wide RTS’s. This time, Brooklyn’s Command Bus Company was first in line, receiving 6 green and yellow striped 96”-wide T8J-604’s in 1984 (CBC 351-356) plus 38 more T8J-604’s in 1985 (CBC 357-394). Most of the other PBL’s immediately would follow CBC’s lead, except for LL and NYBS (both of whom did not purchase any RTS’s, especially NYBS, a Fishbowl suburban devotee until the very end). Triboro Coach Corp. owned the largest fleet of PBL RTS-04, taking delivery of 76 red-striped T8J-204’s (TCC 640-715) in 1985. Cooper siblings Green Bus Lines and Jamaica Buses Inc. were not far behind. Green-striped T8J-204’s began serving long-term GM devotee Green Bus Lines: GBL 221-268 and GBL 270-292 were delivered in 1985. GBL 221, the 10,001st RTS built, was renumbered GBL 10001 to honor its historical significance (which certainly also gave the unit the title of being the highest-numbered GBL bus in the history of that carrier). Jamaica Buses took delivery of 29 T8J-204’s in 1985; JBI 501-529 were painted in the distinctive light brown and red-striped JBI livery. Queens Transit Corp. and Steinway Transit Corp. still were purchasing new GMD Fishbowls well into the 1980’s, thus QTC/STC acquired only a modest number of orange-striped 96” wide RTS-04’s. QTC received 39 T8J-604’s (QTC 205-243) in 1985, while STC took delivery of 19 T8J-604’s (STC 24-42) in the same year. QTC/STC together owned the largest fleet of T8J-604’s in NYC (58 units), and was the 2nd largest T8J-604 fleet owner in the U.S. NYCDOT-purchased RTS-04’s were equipped with Detroit Diesel 6V92TA engines, Allison V730RH hydraulic transmissions, 5-hole 10-stud cast steel disc wheels, sliding passenger side window sashes, and push-type exit doors. Most PBL units sported rectangular amber reflectors mounted directly above their headlamps, which were not found on TA/OS RTS’s. Unlike their TA/OA cousins, PBL RTS-04’s used electrically-driven curtain-type front and side destination signs, and lacked both hoodlum lights and rear destination signs. That the GM RTS-04 had a very robust design is underscored by the fact that the vast majority of NYCDOT RTS-04’s outlived the carriers who originally had operated them. When MTA Bus Company was formed in 2005 to acquire the properties of the 7 NYC PBL’s, 196 of the original 278 NYCDOT RTS-04’s (70%) still were on the rosters of their owners despite 20+ years of very hard service. These units were renumbered into the new MTA Bus numbering system. In complete contrast, the Grumman Flxible Model 870’s operated by the PBL’s were withdrawn from service after only a few years, and all were resold long before MTA Bus existed. Although the Model 870 design employed lightweight construction materials and a significantly reduced number of fasteners, clearly GM’s heavier but stronger modular bus design was much better suited to withstand the rigors of NYC transit operations. Militating against the RTS-04 in the New Millennium was its power plant. Although Detroit Diesel 6V-71N and 6V-92TA engines had been used for many years in North American transit buses, regulatory agencies considered 2-stroke diesels to be greater air polluters than their 4-stroke counterparts. In order to achieve compliance with increasingly stringent air pollution requirements, from the mid-1990’s onward NYC transit operators generally specified 4-stroke diesel engines for their new buses, and in some cases they repowered certain older transit bus fleets with new 4-stroke Detroit Diesel Series 50 engines. The economics of installing brand new DD50 engines in 20+ year old RTS-04’s were unfavorable, and MTA Bus retired these gallant old buses by 2006. Fortunately, MTAB definitely had a keen sense of history, and they decided to create their own museum bus collection. Among their meticulously restored 7 bus collection is GBL 10001 (originally delivered as GBL 221, later renumbered MTAB 4220); the 1985 T8J-204 is stored at JFK Depot when not on display.

[Mr. Linsky]

Bob,

Here's another one just for you!

Pictured below is fleet number 251 - A 1985 GM RTS 4 Model T8J-204 (ser# FV823107) and one of forty seven (221 to 268) delivered to Green Bus Lines of Jamaica, New York in July of that year.

Now, you might think that 47 is an odd number of buses to order, but Green Line did the same thing once before when they ordered 47 Macks in 1933!

Photo from BusTalk Gallery taken by unknown photographer on the Q60 Queens Boulevard line at 48th. Street.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Q65A]

Nice photo, Mr. Linsky!
It certainly is a real "Queens vignette" that I probably had observed personally many times.
It's pretty hard for me to describe a GM RTS-04 as an "historical bus", and it's even harder for me to believe that GBL 251, if it were still with us today, would be 23 years of age.
To me, the RTS still looks "futuristic", especially as compared to the relatively squared-off lines of much younger ADB's.
In NYC, there are still very many RTS-06's in service for NYCT, particularly in Manhattan, Brooklyn and Queens (The Bronx and Staten Island are predominantly Orion V country, and the RTS is a rare bird in those boroughs, particularly The Bronx. While Castleton Depot stables only Orion V diesels, Yukon Depot's huge fleet includes some RTS-06's.)
Finally, perhaps the strangest thing of all is seeing only white and blue buses running in Queens neighborhoods where just a few short years ago one would see orange, green, and red striped buses mingling together. Think of the intersection of Continental Avenue and Queens Blvd. in Forest Hills: flashes of GBL green, TCC red, and QSC orange regularly were seen on the Q60, Q23, and Q65A, respectively. Additionally, one also would see flashes of JBI's red/tan/brown on the QM21 in the middle lanes of Queens Blvd.

[Mr. Linsky]

Bob,

I'm always thinking about the intersection of Continental, Queens and 108th. - I practically grew up there - great memories!

The JBI Manhattan Expresses were after my time - in fact, all the expresses were after my time but I sure remember the brightly colored Queens Nassau ACF's that used to layover by the Ridgewood Bank, a variety of Green Line buses that ran Q60 and, as pictured below, the remodeled Yellow 740's that trundled Q23 for Triboro.

Of course, there was one more company involved and that was Carey Transportation with their sleek Flxible Clippers and the 'untouchable' GM 4104's and 4106's moving like bats out of you know where along Q.B.

Just a couple of Queens guys - you and I - sharing memories of better times back home!

Photo from the GBLRebel album at the BusTalk Gallery.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Linesa, Inc., Jamaica, NY