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Bus Design-Leave It to the Manufacturer, NOt the Government

 
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Dieseljim
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Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 548
Location: Perry, NY

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Bus Design-Leave It to the Manufacturer, NOt the Government Reply with quote

With so many of today's transit buses being essentially rolling pieces of junk these days thanks to the ADA, which I call the Crybabies Law (more on that elsewhere), I strongly believe it is time to start leaving the design of transit and over the road coaches to the manufacturers who build them, not a bunch of peabrained government bureaucrats who know virtually nothing about transit or over the road bus operations. The flaws in the ADA are such that it is no wonder that so many buses put on the streets are trouble plagued pieces of junk not fit for service half the time. The very nature of what the ADA demands of motor carriers of passengers has forced some carriers to give up regularly scheduled line service completely or reduce it to little more than weekly " franchise" runs, which serve very little useful purpose. Were it up to me, I would have the ADA either amended to correct the flaws in it as it applies to transit systems and intercity bus companies, or repeal this worthless piece of legislation altogether. While I am all for equal opportunities for the disabled, the extortion, blackmailing tactics that they used to get the ADA was not the way to go about it. No wonder so many systems are in dire financial straits.
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shortlineMCI



Age: 54
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunatly these "peabrains" have a lot of money, power and cry discrimination when they don't get their way and lastly never had a CDL in their lives and probably don't even know what one is.

Anyway, that's why they get their way. It's usually a small group that makes a lot of noise and have lots of congressmen backing them.

I'll switch gears for a second here...most of our Shortline buses are governed to 70 MPH and some 65 depending on that county's requirements

It's the white collars who decided this who sit behind their desk and posses nothing but a class D license and stand outside smoking their cigarettes. You know the type.

Anyway, our drivers including myself curse up a storm because you can't govern down a diesel engine. They blow huge puffs of black smoke when they switch gears, and furthermore, we have only some passing power.

But it's the white collars who see only bottom line numbers.."well, if we slow our buses down, we'll save fuel and this and that. To hell with saving your fuel man..

Man I can't describe the feeling of hauling the big MCI down the Wurtsboro hills at 80 miles an hour.

diesels are meant to run for God's sake!!
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Mr. Linsky
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken,

You mention the Wurtzboro Hill outside Montecello - boy, do I remember that one!

I don't want to sound like Jonathan Higgins on Magnum P.I. but it was a stormy winter day sometime in the late fifties when a couple of friends of mine and myself headed up to the Concord Hotel at Kiamesha Lake off route 17 for one of those fabulous singles weekends.

I was driving my father's hand-me-down 1948 Cadillac - it was a good heavy runner with a solid 150 hp. flat head V-8 with power to spare which came in handy up in the mountains.

I don't remember whether the Thruway was open yet but by the time we reached route 17 a heavy wet sleet was falling which didn't really hamper us until we reached the Wurtzboro Hill.

A little known fact about cars built in the forties was that most (except those ordered for California) had vacuum windshield wipers and during normal operation they worked fairly well.

The problem was that when you needed acceleration such as what was necessary to negotiate the long steep uphill grade ahead of us the windshield wipers would stop for want of vacuum being used by the wide open throttle.

With sleet blanketing the windshield it wasn't easy having to decelerate often enough to clear the windows.

It was an experience I'll never forget, but we did get there and a good time was had by all!

Mr.Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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Dieseljim
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Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 548
Location: Perry, NY

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:55 am    Post subject: Wurtzboro Hill Reply with quote

I have travelled that way in a friend's Peterbilt and there was a pretty long up grade in that vicinity that necessitated downshifting several times, even when empty with flatbed, I could make out the old O&W roadbed close by. That hill seemed to be two or three miles long with a curve near the top. With that in mind, I have an appreciation as to why a Shortline driver would want to get the best run on that hill he possibly could on that st retch of 17. It was and is basically a roller coaster type grade profile between the NY-NJ state line and Binghamton, so I sympathize with any Shortline driver who has to operate with a governed down bus in that territory.
Mr. Linsky wrote:
Ken,

You mention the Wurtzboro Hill outside Montecello - boy, do I remember that one!

I don't want to sound like Jonathan Higgins on Magnum P.I. but it was a stormy winter day sometime in the late fifties when a couple of friends of mine and myself headed up to the Concord Hotel at Kiamesha Lake off route 17 for one of those fabulous singles weekends.

I was driving my father's hand-me-down 1948 Cadillac - it was a good heavy runner with a solid 150 hp. flat head V-8 with power to spare which came in handy up in the mountains.

I don't remember whether the Thruway was open yet but by the time we reached route 17 a heavy wet sleet was falling which didn't really hamper us until we reached the Wurtzboro Hill.

A little known fact about cars built in the forties was that most (except those ordered for California) had vacuum windshield wipers and during normal operation they worked fairly well.

The problem was that when you needed acceleration such as what was necessary to negotiate the long steep uphill grade ahead of us the windshield wipers would stop for want of vacuum being used by the wide open throttle.

With sleet blanketing the windshield it wasn't easy having to decelerate often enough to clear the windows.

It was an experience I'll never forget, but we did get there and a good time was had by all!

Mr.Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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shortlineMCI



Age: 54
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice reading from both!

But yes ..There's two major hills up there in them thar mountains and while the governers can do their job on the straight ground it has no affect on the downhills. The bus will run wide open. Depending on the bus and my comfort level driving it I didn't mnd letting it roll upwards of 85 MPH (it's probably more as that's all the speedo goes to) down those hills, hell that kind of speed will take you back up at least 3/4 up the next hill. The curves that you mentioned don't bother me either, the MCI handles like a dream at that speed and you can't flip them. You really have to "do" something to roll them.

Oh what a roller coaster type ride it is! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Mr. Linsky
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They must be making governors differently today because in my day all you had to do was exceed the set speed (kinetically) at which time you heard a loud 'snap' and that was the end of the governor!

For those of you familiar with Queens, New York routes it was a 'cakewalk' on the steep grade approaching Metropolitan Avenue on the Q37 line.

It got to the point that we all knew which buses had the broken governors and so did the mechanics who did nothing about it until just before PSC inspections.

Without the impediment of the devices, we were able to at least keep up with the super fast Carey Flxible Clippers and their 4104's and 06's on the straightaway at what is now JFK Airport.

That was the most fun of all driving for Green Line! (well, the girls too!)

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY


Last edited by Mr. Linsky on Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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shortlineMCI



Age: 54
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH definatly different as far as today's governers are. There's a hard wire that connects to a laptop and a port that's under the buses dashboard that links directly to the buses main computer. In the laptop, there is a very complex program loaded that comes directly from MCI.

It's meant to not let the transmission exceed 2500 RPMs, or 65 MPH. SO! the only snapping we'll hear Mr. Linsky are our knees standing on the excelerator trying to get some passing power Very Happy

And believe me It's a pain in the you know what when you get behind a car that's going 63 or 64. We' have to just stay behind there until an opportunity comes up to pass
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Dieseljim
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Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 548
Location: Perry, NY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Shortline Buses Running Through to Rochester and Buffalo Reply with quote

I remember when Shortline participated in a pool with Empire Trailways on the New York-Elmira-Rochester -Buffalo pool. That was when they were running GMC coaches. I got on a 4903 at Mt. Morris bound for Buffalo and noticed that the b us had a four piece rear window, something highly unusual for buses of that type. I don't know if that was common on Shortline suburbans or 4903s or any other 'buffaloes' they operated at the time. That was when stickshifts were still common. I wonder if the reason for the four piece back window on a 4903 was due to the same cracking problem common on in city 5301 transits? Try running a Shortline charter between New York and Rochester and you also have a big grade on Interstate 390 south of Dansville that is a long pull of several miles duration. It levels out as you are going by Wayland than resumes less than a mile east of that exit. Not exactly an ideal run for today's MCIs
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Bus Design-Leave It to the Manufacturer, NOt the Governm Reply with quote

Dieseljim wrote:
With so many of today's transit buses being essentially rolling pieces of junk these days thanks to the ADA, which I call the Crybabies Law (more on that elsewhere), I strongly believe it is time to start leaving the design of transit and over the road coaches to the manufacturers who build them, not a bunch of peabrained, coked up, government bureaucrats who know virtually nothing about transit or over the road bus operations...

Dieseljim -

Sorry, I'm late for class! You are preaching to the choir on this one, with your cranky views that recall the child's fable of, The Emperor's New Clothes...

Why, oh, why, as taxpayers do we have to pay for these highly overpriced and inffective products? What is apparently happening is that each operating
agency has its own wizard (completely without CDL or shops time), charmed with a notion their agency needs fresh sheets of paper, customized designs.
Builders say, they are happy to do it, they'll just add the charges to the bill.

I still am beyond all shock at the dealer showroom sticker on all these new and wondrous coaches. There is no way to reconcile it with, what it is claimed,
the inflation factors in CPI/ PPI/ WPI. Compare, in the mid 1950 era, Chicago CTA bought a very large order of Flxibles at under $20,000 the copy! Top of
the line, GMC T&C coaches didn't cost much more...

......................Vern.............
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RailBus63
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never mind the ADA - the bigger issue right now is the environmental movement which is constantly pushing changes in engine technology in an endless quest to provide perfectly 'clean' air. How much cost has been added to transit and longhaul coaches due to the need to equip every bus with high-technology engines, particulate traps and filters, etc.? How many more buses could be purchased and operated if we used a slightly less clean but far more common-sense technology?
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RailBus63 wrote:
Never mind the ADA - the bigger issue right now is the environmental movement...

RailBus63 -

"Freight side" (the cargo haulers) have struggled with this for years! It carries the unwelcome effects of much higher prices, and much more
complex upkeep requirements, too...

With transit vehicles, it just gets hidden in the pass along to all the happy taxpayers who must fund it. With freight, it is out of the pockets
of private sector fleets. In turn, it just gets passed along in higher cargo rates. Results: Check local megastore, grocery, or near anyplace else...

The sheer genius of ADA requirements, which you briefly set aside, is also wondrous. Used to be, long before the well meaning meddling, many
city transit routes covered by fifty-one (51) seat coaches. Now, the latest, greatest single unit designs have but about thirty-five (35) seats. These
days, three coaches to do the work of two! Oh, of course more seats available. All that takes is the quite costly, and complex artics! Bah!

....................Vern..............
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Dieseljim
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Location: Perry, NY

PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:08 am    Post subject: Bus MFRs. and The "Envirofreaks Reply with quote

I would put the Envirofreaks in the same gutter and tell them to go to you know where if they don't like a coach the way it is built. High time someone stood up to these sniveling crybaby snots and tell them to go pick their own noses and not everyone elses snad leave bus design to those who know what they are doing and NOt a bunch of coked up bureaucrats who do not have a CDL or any other qualifications needed to deal with commercial buses.
RailBus63 wrote:
Never mind the ADA - the bigger issue right now is the environmental movement which is constantly pushing changes in engine technology in an endless quest to provide perfectly 'clean' air. How much cost has been added to transit and longhaul coaches due to the need to equip every bus with high-technology engines, particulate traps and filters, etc.? How many more buses could be purchased and operated if we used a slightly less clean but far more common-sense technology?
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shortlineMCI



Age: 54
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately the envirofreak - a - zoids are not just a few keniving snivelling whackos. They are big enough and have enough clout in congress to actually have enough control over private industry.

They have complete control over how Detroit builds the automobile, so now Detroit is now building cars to their standards which adds thousands and thousands of dollars to the cost of the automobile.

Until they just crawl back into the hole deep beneath the Earth's Crust forever, Detroit, MCI and all the others will not be able to build Cars, Trucks or Buses that WE actually want to drive and own.

Who pays for all these assinine stupid restrictions? That adds thousands to the cost of a vehicle? Hmm? Just have a look in the mirror. Thank you Mr. oversized Government.

And I'm sorry Micheal for injecting politics to this board, but Government is very involved in how Private industry manufactures our modes of transportation. That's not the bad part. The bad part is me and you are paying for it. Just look at your paycheck and the deductions.
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shortlineMCI wrote:
...but Government is very involved in how Private industry manufactures our modes of transportation. That's not the bad part...

Hmmmm... Not to be so sure? A very strong case can be made that it is exactly what prompted exit of GM from the bus business. Really, now!
Who was anyone to tell GM - T&C how to build busses? Slick "right college" types on Congressional staffs? Get outta' here!

So, in the more recent excitement, looks much like GM being prodded to exit the automobile business?

..................Vern..............
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RailBus63
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this discussion has run its course.
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