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Historical Buses of NYC: Gen 3 Fishbowls I

 
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Q65A



Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 1764
Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Historical Buses of NYC: Gen 3 Fishbowls I Reply with quote

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) 108 mandated new exterior lighting requirements for vehicles manufactured in the U.S. after 1/1/68. Buses longer than 30 feet would be required to comply with the new law, and GM introduced the Third Generation of New Looks as a result of this legislation. The GM coach nomenclature system, in effect since the early 1940’s, also would be upgraded at this time to reflect changes in the bus market. New transits still would be designated with a “T” prefix, but the old “D” designation was eliminated in favor of numerals “6” or “8”. Since the Old Look era, diesel engines had been standard equipment in all but the smallest transit buses, so numeric designations were used instead of the letter “D” to indicate either standard 6V-71N or optional 8V-71N Detroit Diesel power. Letters “H” or “M” still were used to indicate hydraulic or mechanical transmissions. 40-foot transits were called 5305 (102” width) and 5306 (96” width), while 35-foot transits were called 4520 (102” width) and 4521 (96” width). Reflecting a trend that had increased sharply after the Second Generation of New Looks, the new suffix “A” was added to air-conditioned coaches. Third Generation suburban New Look coaches were known as S6H/M-4503 (35-foot) and S8H/M-5303 (40-foot); both of these models were 96” wide. In response to the new lighting requirements dictated by FMVSS 108, Third Generation Fishbowls incorporated as standard equipment several features that formerly had been offered as options: front and rear Michigan Markers, side directional signals, side marker lamps and reflectors located at mid-vehicle rooftop, and backup lights were installed as standard factory equipment. Separate stop, turn, and tail lamps also were furnished, with the result that early Third Generation Fishbowls sported a somewhat crowded “6-lamp tailgate”, with four large (7” diameter) red stop and turn signal lamps stacked above two 4” red tail lamps, plus 2 small white backup lamps and 2 small red reflectors. Around 1970, the two small tail lamps were eliminated, thus yielding a less cluttered tail gate appearance. Clearance lights were redesigned to eliminate the bullet-type housings that had been used on the Second Generation New Looks. Side directional signals were the amber “armored beehive” type, mounted near the front wheel housings. Non-reflective finishes were applied to all surfaces near the B/O’s compartment to minimize glare. Some changes were made to add value and to reduce maintenance costs. An electrically operated front destination sign now was standard. Provisions were made on the instrument panel for installation of 3 small gauges (a standard voltmeter plus optional oil pressure and water temperature gauges) between the standard air pressure gauge and speedometer; telltale panels also were installed. The left hand switch panel layout was simplified, with a toggle switch controlling the HVAC system instead of the old rotary switch. Hydraulic transmission controls were either lever-type (floor mounted to the right of the B/O) or air-operated (via a small, 3-button panel mounted at the upper right hand corner of the front instrument panel). QTC’s units used the button-type selector on their early 5306’s. Satin finished 2-piece bumpers were fitted, along with many other structural, electrical, and mechanical improvements. Some units built after 1970 were equipped with an optional “Environmental Improvement Package” (“EIP”). This package included air pollution abatement equipment such as a vertical exhaust pipe (mounted in the streetside rear quarter window) and a large air intake (mounted in the curbside rear quarter window). In spite of all these advancements, the new Fishbowls did not sell as well as their predecessors: 5,562 Third Generation units were built in the U.S. (as compared to 11,870 Second Generation Fishbowls). NYC purchases of Third Generation Fishbowls mirrored this national trend. NYCTA bought 333 T6H-5305A’s in 2 orders: NYCTA 8801-8933 were built in November-December 1968 (contract MB-1Cool, while NYCTA 4300-4499 were built in February-April 1970 (contract MB-20). Delivered in dark green livery, they were equipped with parking lot heater connections, single piece front and side destination signs, PA systems and 2-way radios. In response to increasing levels of bus-related crimes, they also had 2 amber “hoodlum” lights (one installed on each side of the front destination sign). This feature has been installed on all NYCT transit buses ordered since 1968. NYCT 4484-4499 and 8910-8933 had 47 forward facing seats for express service, a feature later added to most members of the 8801 series. NYCTA 8829-8878 were equipped with Bus-O-Rama panels; the combination of front-mounted hoodlum lights and the 6-lamp tail gate distinguished them from late-model TA/OA TDH-5303’s. The 8801 series buses initially were assigned to Ulmer Park and Castleton Depots, while members of the 4300 series were assigned to various depots in the Brooklyn, Queens, and Manhattan Divisions. They later were repainted into the 2-tone blue livery of the 1970’s. Subsequently, 148 units were renumbered into the 6300 and 6400 series, and ran until they were replaced by new ADB’s in 1984. NYCT 8928 was preserved as part of the TA Vintage Bus Fleet. Restored in the TA’s dark green 1960’s livery, It is a regular attendee at annual DOB Bus Roadeos and Vintage Bus Exhibits, and normally is stored at Ulmer Park Depot. Beginning in 1984-1985, 185 selected T6H-5305A’s were rebuilt by Blitz Body Co. of Chicago. These “Blitz Buses” were painted white and blue, and were fitted with blue longitudinal hard seats and a boxy structure installed at the middle of the rooftop. These were renumbered 5100-5284, and were assigned to 100 St., Amsterdam, and Queens Village Depots. They operated alongside newer buses until they finally were replaced by ADB’s in 1995. Blitz Bus 5227 (ex-4401) was preserved as part of the TA’s Vintage Bus Fleet; it is stored at Flatbush Depot when not on display.
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add to Q65A's excellent report on the third generation 'New Looks' which, by the way, sound very much like they were a whole new bus, note that three New York area PBL's also purchased T6H 5305A models.

Green Bus Lines with 60; (101 to 125, 126 to 145 & 146 to 160).
Triboro Coach with 15; (970 to 984).
Jamaica Buses with 45; (841 to 860, 871 to 880 & 901 to 915).

See specimens below courtesy of BusTalk Gallery.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, N.Y.

NYC # 5227 (ex 4401) Blitz Rebuild

Green Line # 144

Triboro Coach # 974

Jamaica Buses # 874
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B53RICH




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another great report, Q65A. I would like to add that 4301 was the only bus in that order to have an EIP device which I think was a demo.
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

One question;

In the photo above, is Triboro #974 crossing Queens Boulevard at Continental/108th in Forest Hills.

Looks very familiar to me! Question

Mr. 'L'
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Q65A



Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 1764
Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your kind comments, guys!
Here's the PBL portion of the Gen. 3 Fishbowl article:
As with the TA, the PBL’s did not buy large numbers of Third Generation Fishbowls, and the orders they did place were split between 5305’s and 5306’s. Not unexpectedly, Green Bus Lines had the largest fleet of T6H5305A’s. GBL acquired 60 units in 4 different orders: 101-125 (1968), 126-145 (1968), 146-150 (1970) and 151-160 (1970-1971). Jamaica Buses Inc. bought 45 T6H-5305A’s in 3 orders: 841-860 (1968), 871-880 (1969) and 901-915 (1971). JBI also purchased 5 suburbans: S8H-5303A’s #’s 151-155 were built in 1971. In contrast to Cooper siblings, Triboro Coach Corp. bought only 15 T6H-5305A’s (970-984) in 1968. Queens Transit Corp. bought 60 T6H-5306A’s in 5 separate orders: 146-155 (1969), 156-160 (1969), 161-170 (1970), 171-175 (1971) and 176-195 (1971). Some of QTC’s units were equipped with push-button air-operated hydraulic transmission controls. QTC also bought 5 S8H-5303A’s (264-268) in 1970. Steinway Transit Corp. received 20 T6H-5306’s: 316-320 (1969), 321-325 (1969), 326-330 (1970) and 338-347 (1971). 35-foot transit buses had become rare items in NYC by the late 1960’s, but in classic fashion, Avenue B & East Broadway Transit bought 15 new T6H-4521A’s: 611-615 (1968), 616-620 (1970) and 621-625 (1971). A perennial suburban fan, NYBS bought 2 new S8M-5303A’s (1261 and 1262) in 1969; these later were supplemented by several used S8M- and S8H-5303A’s. Somewhat atypically, NYBS also bought 18 new T6H-5306A’s: 2000-2002 in 1969 and 1264-1278 in 1970. In 1981, 10 additional second-hand T6H-5306A’s were acquired (NYBS 500-509).
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Q65A



Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 1764
Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
In the photo above, is Triboro #974 crossing Queens Boulevard at Continental/108th in Forest Hills.

I think you're absolutely correct, Mr. L.
Despite the destination sign (which suggests a southbound Q23), in the photo you had posted, TCC 974 appears to be headed northbound on the Q23 (crossing Queens Blvd. to head northbound on 108th Street).
The photographer appears to have been standing on or near the southeastern corner of 71st Ave. & Queens Blvd. (near the Forest Hills Branch of the Queensboro Public Library).
The view is looking toward the northwest.
My namesake bus (Q65A, today's Q64) would be standing out of the picture at the extreme right.
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Waynejay



Age: 58
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 196
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Historical Buses of NYC: Gen 3 Fishbowls I Reply with quote

Q65A wrote:
Beginning in 1984-1985, 185 selected T6H-5305A’s were rebuilt by Blitz Body Co. of Chicago. These “Blitz Buses” were painted white and blue, and were fitted with blue longitudinal hard seats and a boxy structure installed at the middle of the rooftop. These were renumbered 5100-5284, and were assigned to 100 St., Amsterdam, and Queens Village Depots. They operated alongside newer buses until they finally were replaced by ADB’s in 1995. Blitz Bus 5227 (ex-4401) was preserved as part of the TA’s Vintage Bus Fleet; it is stored at Flatbush Depot when not on display.


Thanks again Bob. Just wanted to add that some of the NYCTA's 5305A sent to Blitz were rebuilt with 2X2 seating for express service. These were the upper 5100 series. Also some of the 5305A and 5309A/10A blitz rebuilds for local service had 2X2 hard seating.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 2378
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do remember seeing these more on express buses than in regular service, though a few regular ones may have been used on at least (by the time I was growing up) the M27 and M29 routes. And weren't 4300-4499 actually built in Feb-Apr 1971? I know in-between these "bookend" orders (that and the 1968 8801-8933 order), Flxible got its first "dual order" for both TA and OA, with them building OA buses for the first time. The 1965-71 buses from both Flxible and GM I would rank as among my favorites, in no small part due to their rear-window setup having been 4-piece from the outset.
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