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Why Over The Road Carriers Should Issue Timetables

 
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Dieseljim
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Location: Perry, NY

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:34 am    Post subject: Why Over The Road Carriers Should Issue Timetables Reply with quote

Most bus carriers engaged in line haul passenger service between cities are required by law to publish schedules of rates known as tariffs and make them available for public inspection. It seems to me that timetables should also be required of carriers operating scheduled intercity service, even in the computer age as NOT EVERYONE can afford a computer, let alone a square meal in some cases. When Greyhound stopped issuing their set of timetables years ago, it left me the impression that they may have something to hide. while it is true that service may change constantly at Greyhound, there are still many carriers on which schedules remain basically the same though with an occasional minor adjustment here and there. A lot of frequency of changes is the result of deregulation run amok. A timetable attractively done can be a great sales tool for the issuing company. Peter Pan/Bonanza does a nice job on their schedule booklets and cards as does Trailways of New York comprised of Adirondack,New York, and Pine Hill Trailways. Martz Trailways puts out an attractive timetable folder for their operation as do Capitol Trailways and Bieber Tourways, why not Greyhound? If Amtrak can issue a multitude of timetable folders, even with the availability of computers, why not Greyhound and other carriers, such as Jefferson Lines and TNM&O to name a couple examples? Tables lifted from the Russells Guide and put into attractive folders would do the trick, even on relatively cheap paper.What do these carriers have to hide, other than a PUblic be damned attitude that former CEO of Greyhound Fred Currey left at the company?
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Why Over The Road Carriers Should Issue Timetables Reply with quote

Dieseljim wrote:
Most bus carriers engaged in line haul passenger service between cities are required by law to publish schedules of rates known as tariffs and make them available for public inspection. It seems to me that timetables should also be required of carriers operating scheduled intercity service... result of deregulation run amok...

Dieslejim -

Are you aware of any particular mandates on this? You are correct in your assessment of deregulation. A great deal of data of the whole
experience is out there. In many respects, it has been far more pernicious effects than any measurable, meaningful benefits.

What's the precise requirements for public rate publications of scheduled bus services? I'm unclear on the point. On paper, if it parallels
"freight side" practices, there is no longer publication requirement. That is, provided there is no specific mandate imposed on STB. Else,
I can imagine where more conventional State PUC bodies may continue publication on intrastate services.

One of the deregulation mandates within some States border on silliness in action. What to make of a State wherein its deregulation
a policy under law. No requirements for rate publication. Same way on actual public schedules, and so on. Yet, at the same time,
establishing law where the favored, subsidized operator established, at law, as the sole operator allowed on any transit services? That's
insanity, and it should be aggressively tested. IMHO, jitneys can still operate, given some structures possible under other law.

Your major premise, printed and attractive timetables are a most valuable marketing aid, is without question. And, yes, it is certainly
clear that somehow venerable Greyhound lost its way over the decades...

..............Vern.............
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Required Publications Reply with quote

Each individual state DOES require that rates and fares be made public, along with the rules and regulations that govern them, Conditions of carriage, and so on. This is part of the common carrier's obligation to the public. To inform the prospective passenger or shipper of the rates and fares in effect for whatever his transportation needs are. I took some courses in freight traffic management/administration back in the seventies and some of the principals used there are applicable to passenger carriage as well. When a carrier holds himself out to the public for transportation of everyone and anything, he assumes certain obligations, which include the publication of rates and fares for the services offered. As for the issuance of timetables for scheduled services, common decency would call for these to be issued as well. If they are not required, they certainly should be. It is a good back up to a computer in cases of crashes or hackings, and good public relations, too. Otherwise if a carrier does not make his rates and fares, etc. public, it conveys the impression that he and his personnel have something to hide and are up to something underhanded.
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Why Over The Road Carriers Should Issue Timetables Reply with quote

Dieseljim wrote:
...Each individual state DOES require that rates and fares be made public, along with the rules and regulations that govern them, Conditions of carriage, and so on. This is part of the common carrier's obligation to the public... I took some courses in freight traffic management/administration back in the seventies... When a carrier holds himself out to the public for transportation of everyone and anything, he assumes certain obligations, which include the publication of rates and fares for the services offered...

Dieseljim -

Ah, you took your classes long ago and on a faraway planet! So did I. There are most troubling problems of current ways, especially city and
suburban passenger transport. Enormous difficulties have since been constructed in interpretation of "...the common carrier's obligation to the
public..."


The way it is done now, there is too much enthusiasm for what is understood as absolute common carrier obligation. In the past, few carriers
held out such broad scope, short of Railway Express. Service rates were priced accordingly. But, what the hey! These days, all the taxpayers
get to pay for it!

The greater part of the the public tariffs provisions trashed with close of the ICC. Whether every State continues to require public notice of
intrastate passenger carriage is another matter. I can imagine where New York and Pennsylvania may continue with adherance. In every other
State, who knows? In the enthusiasm to shut down the ICC, many States also abandoned any regulation of carriers, other than very basic
insurance and safety requirements (which State Police can readily enforce).

In other words: Just how large of a mess are we dealing with these days?

....................Vern...............
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Common Carrier Obligations Reply with quote

Yes,Vern; You are right about there being one hell of a mess out there. If the requirements for publishing tariffs could be brought back, even Greyhound would clean up its act. Why hide information that should be readily available to the public, such as the rates and fares and timetable schedules with no muss no fuss? Individual timetable folders are a lot easier to handle than a thick, systemwide timetable book such as Greyhound issues six times a year.
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Why Over The Road Carriers Should Issue Timetables Reply with quote

Dieseljim -

Ah, this deregulation junk, and all that it brought with it! Quite the mess on "freight side" work. The industry immediately lapsed into a,
...does Gimble tell Macy... mode, and much of the rate work bcame secret operations! That's nuts, of course...

Bad enough on truckload, and one has to be a real wizard simply to divine fair rate lines for a given piece of traffic. It struck me as some
real bravado by some of the major LTL houses, that with emergence of Internet, offered sites where point to point rates could be checked
for particular LTL shipments, between myriad points. Effectively, the LTL carriers playing the game were showing their cards for much of
their individual rate strategies.

I can't read your mind, of course. I concur with your implied thinking that scheduled bus carriers should step up to the plate, and provide
rate lines over their respective systems. It is invaluable to continuing customers, and possible new riders. So, a competitor might know,
too? Ah, there is a point where all in the game realize it is futile to try to play the rate undercutting gambits, and no one wins...

..................Vern.................
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:39 am    Post subject: Rates and Fares Reply with quote

It is the rate cutting gambit that is going to do more harm, particularly to established carriers than good, particularly when the Chinatown operators, many of them "fly by night operators" are involved. In what I have learned about freight rates, you can have as many as half a dozen or more different rates apply to a given piece of traffic moving from Point A to Point B via a given route including through rates, joint rates, commodity and class rates, etc. Enough to make a shipper wish he had a whole bottle of aspirin handy. Same goes for passenger fares in many cases.This deregulation mess, in both freight and passenger common carrier transportation has opened a whole can of worms that never should have been opened in the first place. As to whoever came up with the idea of deregulation, I sure would like to take a wiz on his grave.
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Rates and Fares Reply with quote

Dieseljim wrote:
...In what I have learned about freight rates, you can have as many as half a dozen or more different rates apply to a given piece of traffic moving from Point A to Point B via a given route including through rates, joint rates, commodity and class rates, etc....

On domestic cargo, that had been the classic model, as it had evolved thru decades of railroad work. It did provide for cartage, drayage,
pickup and delivery operators, that (among other things) worked in connection with the rail system. As highway cargo developed, it also
followed the rail model. For the system to work, it did require publications by rate bureaus, where parties free of anti-trust liability...

With deregulation, all that disappeared. On motor cargo, we have what is a maze of independent rate lines by each carrier! In addition,
what we do see in public notice for what is, effectively, generic class rate lines. What is actually going on is a carrier has myriad separate
agreements (acting exactly much like earlier contract carriers), in which the generic line is the base line, but there is a negotiated discount
level for each shipper agreement! So, on a practical level, carrier - shipper negotiations are more of a skilled poker game, as neither side
knows exactly what is really happening.

Now, that is a mess! A vital point, though, is with these passing decades, Cass Bank (St. Louis) continuing studies document NO savings
thru deregulation
.

On another note, why STB is involved in any of it for rail is beyond me. Besides that, it is an exclusive boutique trade. On a complaint, it
takes thousands of dollars, just in filing fees, to petition for a hearing!

Quote:
...As to whoever came up with the idea of deregulation, I sure would like to take a wiz on his grave...

Do the right thing, and send invitations! I'lll be there to help....

..................Vern............
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Dieseljim
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:04 am    Post subject: Timetables and Freight Rates Reply with quote

With the maze of freight rates what it is, how is a shipper supposed to know what he is going to pay for the transportation services needed to move his goods to market? Does he pay a commodity rate or a class rate?
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim -

It recalls the old gag, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, practice, practice!"

Back in filed, published tariff days, "commodity" rates largely applied to steady, known, specific movements of cargo. Carriers pricing, in effect,
"custom tailored" to recognize cost factors, and other competitive considerations. The dafault, "class" rate lines applied to everything else. The
distinctions, notably, in applications of common carier pricing.

Compare, contract carrier rates a part of the controlling contract between carrier and shipper. Evidently, what we have today is something of
what is, effectively, a mix of both. As it is claimed to be all deregulated, anyway, the heritage language doesn't precisely apply...

Then, too, in rate discussions, a customer needs to satisfy whether they are actually dealing with a ready, willing, fit and able provider. In the
de-reg tumult, carriers sales and marketing people had some real problems in ascertaining what the shippers were actually saying, in their own,
self serving, reports of viable competition.

In my own experience, I have to confess I have have beem "suckered" by a shipper or two, in their little rate negotiation games. Before the
little electronic boxes on our desks, it was difficult to ascertain just who and what we faced as claimed, valid competition. I still kick myself, now
and then, when I found I had bought the shipper's nonsense about the competitor. When that line had its "Going Out Of Business! Everything
Must Go!" sale, only then I learned I had been up against a six truck operator, stretched way too thin to keep the promises it had made to its
shippers...

Many battle scarred, carrier sales pros used a line in their own negotiations: "Nice rate! Does my competitor give you a truck with that number?"

....................Vern................
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RailBus63
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Timetables and Freight Rates Reply with quote

Dieseljim wrote:
With the maze of freight rates what it is, how is a shipper supposed to know what he is going to pay for the transportation services needed to move his goods to market? Does he pay a commodity rate or a class rate?


Full truckload shipments typically move on a rate per mile basis. Less-Than-Truckload (LTL) shipments use a rate base that is calculated on both commodity and distance. Those LTL rate bases may be the provider's own or a third-party rate base used by multiple shippers. Any major shipper uses signed contracts these days, and the actual rates and LTL discounts are (supposedly) secret.
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