BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Joe:

As always, greatly appreciate your personal memories and input.

I had long-ago read that, originally, main-line steam trains were also to be carried over the BB, which, of course, meant that there had to be heavy structural re-enforcement in the Bridge roadway and the cable supports.

Consider, at one time, just how heavy a load the span once carried; a steady parade of streetcars and El trains, in addition to motor traffic.

Too, consider the weight of the tracks and related infrastructure for the El trains and the streetcars; during rush periods, streetcars were often bumper-to-bumper on the Bridge; even though the El cars were of wooden construction, they certainly were not light in weight.

Later streetcars (like the Peter Witts and the PCC's) were, of course, of all-metal construction.

The weight load on the Bridge was the reason why steel BRT/BMT subway trains were never carried over the span, although at the Chambers St. station (a terminal station, until the Nassau St. Loop was completed in 1931) incorporated a track layout where a set of tracks were to rise up to the surface, and connect to the El tracks on the Bridge (in fact, this proposal was the main reason why the station's ceilings are so high)

Of course, the weight of the all-steel "AB" Standards would have been too great.

The lightweight BMT experimental trainsets of the 1930's would have been ideal for crossing the Bridge; it was envisioned at the time that fleets of such modern, lightweight trains would have replaced all of the BMT's elderly elevated car fleet, but Mayor La Guardia had already sealed the fates of the elevated network........

"NYO"

["BROOKLYN RAPID TRANSIT"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

This busy circa-1910 view (near Sand Street) shows the tremendous amount of rail traffic once carried by the Brooklyn Bridge; note the El trains and, also the streetcars, which are running on two levels)

Also, note the steel girderwork for the overhead trolley wires; the heavy steel elevated structure is also clearly defined here.

Looking at the Bridge today, one would scarcely imagine the intense rapid transit traffic it once carried.......

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/408279522475054346/

["BMT LINES"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

These two historic photos at Sands Street depict the complexity and heavy construction required for the heavy El and streetcar traffic crossing the Brooklyn Bridge.

Hard to believe that not a trace of any of this complex and intricate rapid transit infrastructure remains today.........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?113238

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?113235

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["LEXINGTON"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Post-1944, we see a PCC which has just left the Brooklyn Bridge trackage and is about to enter the Park Row loops; note how the former El tracks have been re-aligned to connect to the streetcar loops.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?140778

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["BoT"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Here's an interesting, in-depth page (w/ many photos and diagrams) on the cavernous, echoing, now-decaying BMT Chambers St. station; read here of the proposal to have a set of tracks connect to the Brooklyn Bridge trackage.

Also of interest is that the LIRR operated a summer-only through service (via the Willy B) to Rockaway Beach from Chambers Street, between 1913 and 1917; this service would have used the LIRR's earliest MP-41's, which were virtually identical to the INTERBOROUGH's earliest rolling stock.

Imagine taking the LIRR from lower Manhattan out to Rockaway........

https://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/chambers.html

["MP-41"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

These photos highlight Sands Street; the 1947 photo indeed has quite a barren and desolate look, when compared to the older photos.........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?117621

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?52479

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?132305

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?18195

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["GRAHAM"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

This highly-informative page features track plans, maps, and photos of the long-abandoned (closed 1948) Delancey Street trolley terminal.

A list of the car lines that once served this station is also included......

https://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/willb.html

["BRIDGE LOCAL"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Previously, I mentioned the joint BRT/LIRR service between Chambers Street and Rockaway Park; the earliest LIRR MU's (MP-41's) like the first INTERBOROUGH cars, were designed by George Gibbs.

These early MU's were, in fact, designed to operate within the tight confines of the IRT's tunnels.The interiors of the MP-41's were virtually identical of those of the 41's, even down to the leather straps for standing passengers (the last were retired in the early 1950's)

Unlike the IRT cars, however, the 41's were equipped with steps, vestibule traps, and roof-mounted headlights......

"NYO"

["GIBBS"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Compare these two photos of a LIRR MP-54 and an early INTERBOROUGH car; these early electrics were virtually identical.

In later years, of course, the early IRT cars had automatic center doors installed; by this time, however, they had been relegated to service on the Manhattan elevateds, and were no longer in subway service..........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?17595

https://www.rr-fallenflags.org/li/li-mu1110ggC.jpg

(courtesy: nycsubway.org/fallenflags.org)

["INTERBOROUGH"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Much legend abounds concerning the IRT/LIRR connection at Atlantic Avenue; some believe it was never used; others insist it was, at least, by the larger than life August Belmont, traveling out to Belmont Race Track aboard his private subway car (the only one of its kind in the world) the luxurious "MINEOLA".

Interesting collection of photos, track plans, and articles here..........

https://arrts-arrchives.com/irtconn.html

["MINEOLA"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

While on the subject of the world's only private subway car, the stately "MINEOLA", here are some interior and exterior photos.

Rescued from a farmer's field many decades ago, this unique subway car has been undergoing many years of restoration at the Shore Line Trolley Museum.

This luxurious car even had its own galley (with electrical appliances!) and a restroom...........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?127841

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?127844

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?34754

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?127843

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?34755

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?22199

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["IRT LINES"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

In discussing rapid transit operations over the lower East River crossings, mention must be made of the Chrystie Street Connection; after this connection opened in 1967, the separate identities of the BMT and the IND vanished.

In the early days and weeks of the new connection, operations were far from smooth.

This is a very detailed and informative page.......

https:///en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystie_Street_Connection

["NX"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Bridge

Of particular interest, see the articles headed:

"RECONSTRUCTION"

"SUBWAY TRACKS"

"TRACKAGE HISTORY"

["BROOKLYN-MANHATTAN TRANSIT"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[N4 Jamaica]

There could be various reasons why the Board of Transportation did not establish an interborough bus route across the Brooklyn Bridge after the 1950 reconstruction. For one, the city had invested in four underwater Independent tunnels.
----
I would recommend a 1995 book by Henry Petroski, Engineers of Dreams: Great bridge builders and the spanning of America. Twice, he refers to the structural limitations of the Brooklyn Bridge, without giving details. He is excellent on engineers learning from errors and sometimes overcompensating. Born in 1942, he has authored at least 19 books.