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MaBSTOA Nostalgia ("Take 2")
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 12284
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

VERY, VERY much impressed with your extensive and most interesting "in depth" response; thank you for taking the time to post this information here! Wink

You presented QUITE an interesting little "capsule history"!

Here again, with the exception of daily bus riders, the changeover from two-way to one-way thoroughfares probably didn't mean all that much to most folks; now, as you and I have both seen, the proverbial stage was being set for a number of changes to existing bus routes.

Two quick questions:

1:

Back in the SURFACE era, how far south into Manhattan could one ride from the northernmost Bronx terminal?

2:

During the MaBSTOA era, what "Tee-Yay" line went the furthest north?

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 54
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Two quick questions:

1:

Back in the SURFACE era, how far south into Manhattan could one ride from the northernmost Bronx terminal?

2:

During the MaBSTOA era, what "Tee-Yay" line went the furthest north?

"NYO"

In response to (1), it would appear the M-100, from 125th and Third Avenue to 239th Street [125th was also where what was the Bx-15 traveled through; that was the southernmost point Bronx routes came into Manhattan, 116th on south were either NYCO (12 now defunct, 13 now M8, 14, 15 later M26 now M23, 16 now M34/M34A, 17 now M79, 18 now M86, 19 now M96 and M106, 20 now M116), FACCo (20 later M28, today part of M57) and Surface (M-103 later combined with M28 to form today's M57, M-106 now M42)]. As to (2), of the Manhattan 'Tee-Yay' routes, obviously the M-15 to 126th Street.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Again, appreciate your input, and, as always, find it quite interesting; one aspect of changing bus routes that I always find interesting is the renumbering.

From what I have read here over time, there have been quite a few of route renumberings over the decades; I always found it interesting to read of ex-TARS car lines (Manhattan and Bronx) now receiving numbers instead of the letter used for many years, when they were converted to buses (SURFACE)

There is a photo from November, 1946 in "ACROSS NEW YORK BY TROLLEY" Kramer) that shows a TARS car on the 59th St. Crosstown line, just prior to the buses replacing them.

On the "X" dash sign, "M-103" had been painted, to acquaint riders with the new bus route number........

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
From what I have read here over time, there have been quite a few of route renumberings over the decades; I always found it interesting to read of ex-TARS car lines (Manhattan and Bronx) now receiving numbers instead of the letter used for many years, when they were converted to buses (SURFACE)

There is a photo from November, 1946 in "ACROSS NEW YORK BY TROLLEY" Kramer) that shows a TARS car on the 59th St. Crosstown line, just prior to the buses replacing them.

On the "X" dash sign, "M-103" had been painted, to acquaint riders with the new bus route number........

It would appear the M-103 number dated to 1940 when STS was granted the franchise for bustitutions of TARS' streetcar routes in Manhattan. Of that lot, only one was started from scratch and not converted from an old trolley line: the ultimately short-lived, ill-fated M-107 180th-181st Street crosstown shuttle running between Haven and St. Nicholas Avenues, for those traveling to and from the shopping centers along that stretch in Washington Heights. Ran from 1941 to 1943, after 1942 it was one franchise trip daily. The others were manifested accordingly - including the very, very short-lived M-102 125th Street crosstown (June 29-July 1, 1947).

Quite a few, over the years, had their numbers reused and recycled:
- M-102 - for ex M-101A Third-Lexington-Lenox line (after 1974)
- M-103 - after split-up of M-101/M-102 c.1989; this line runs from 125th Street to City Hall, while the other two only go as far south as Cooper Union
- M-106 - for ex 106th Street branch of M19 (in 1995-96)
- M-107 - for initial 106th Street crosstown (ran from 1962 to 1974, replaced with truncated 106th Street branch of M19)

And it wasn't simply in Manhattan. Ex-TARS routes in the Bronx also got numbers under Surface. A 1943 TARS map of Bronx routes actually cited future bus numbers for yet-to-be-converted trolley lines. Including a few that didn't even get converted as such (at least two under Yonkers Railroad Co. later Yonkers Transit, three under Westchester Electric Railroad/Westchester Street Transportation).
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Ahhhh, the complexity of it all.....MOST interesting, and, as usual, thanks for the input! Wink

I was surprised to learn that the "M-103" designation went that far back; I had assumed it was a new number to be assigned to the SURFACE buses which replaced the TARS streetcars on thaat particular crosstown run.

IMHO, "SURFACE", back in the day, was the "no-frills workhorse" of Manhattan's bus operations; FACCo., on the other hand, was the more famed and glamorous operation, operating along the fabled and glitzy Fifth Avenue, and operating those famed double deckers.

I really miss the days when MaBSTOA's buses carried the familiar script over their windows; you not only felt a strong sense of "indiduality", but also, that subtle but distinct "touch of class", totally lacking from today's "Em-Tee-Ay" fleet.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing I've also thought about, over the years, was how the former SURFACE (MaBSTOA) routes fared in the South Bronx, during the 1970's, when the area had indeed fallen upon hard times.

The subways, of course, were fast hitting the skids back then, with the trains poorly maintained (if at all), rampant graffiti, and rising crime.

At the very least, the buses themselves were not encased in layer upon layer of lurid, scrawling, ugly "artwork", unlike the subway fleet.......

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
IMHO, "SURFACE", back in the day, was the "no-frills workhorse" of Manhattan's bus operations; FACCo., on the other hand, was the more famed and glamorous operation, operating along the fabled and glitzy Fifth Avenue, and operating those famed double deckers.

And NYCO fell right in the middle of those two extremes, other than being a FACCo "affiliate."
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Another thing I've also thought about, over the years, was how the former SURFACE (MaBSTOA) routes fared in the South Bronx, during the 1970's, when the area had indeed fallen upon hard times.

The subways, of course, were fast hitting the skids back then, with the trains poorly maintained (if at all), rampant graffiti, and rising crime.

At the very least, the buses themselves were not encased in layer upon layer of lurid, scrawling, ugly "artwork", unlike the subway fleet.......

"NYO"

True, but MaBSTOA buses, in both boroughs within their moniker, did have graffiti on their sides and sometimes the back, even a bit inside - but yes, not to the extent of the subways.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

That SIRT rolling stock seemed pretty much unscathed by the plague of graffiti that totally inundated the subway system back in those days is almost a miracle, outside of some intense scrawlings at stations along the line.

Even though city buses were not exempt from graffiti, they certainly fared better than the subway system's rolling stock, which were, by that time, pretty much run into the ground, anyway.....I remembered those days all too well...... Sad

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Even though city buses were not exempt from graffiti, they certainly fared better than the subway system's rolling stock, which were, by that time, pretty much run into the ground, anyway.....I remembered those days all too well...... Sad

We both do.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.......in trying to jog my memory, I'm curious as to which buses were retired first, the GM Fishbowls, or the Flex New Looks.......I have a vague memory that the Flexies were gone first, but am not at all that sure now.....

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
.......in trying to jog my memory, I'm curious as to which buses were retired first, the GM Fishbowls, or the Flex New Looks.......I have a vague memory that the Flexies were gone first, but am not at all that sure now.....

I seem to remember the Flxies were retired first, and there was a whole lot of scuttlebutt about how when the last of the rebuilt GM New Looks were retired, th-th-that was all, folks!
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Thanks.....I see my memory was pretty much correct on this one; so far as the GM Fishbowls, I seem to recall the last vanshed during 1997, or thereabouts.

I know that the first "Tee-Yay" Fishbowls retired were the first generation models, which, IMHO, did not enjoy all that long a service life.

In my area of NJ, the very last Fishbowls disappeared in late 1997..... I miss them still.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following from an old issue of "REMINISCE" magazine......

......in getting to Orchard Beach from where we lived in the Bronx, we walked up to Sherman Avenue to the first of three bus changes through the Bronx, to reach Orchard Beach......."

"......this was our routine, three days a week, each summer, from 1942 through 1955....."

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the Guy E. Martin book on NYC transit buses......

"......these were the first buses (5303's) for MaBSTOA to have all longitudinal seating (43 passengers); of this lot, only #'s 6701 though 6900 were equipped with billboard advertising......"

"......#3472 (a 1963 5303) would eventually become the prototype for billboard advertising signs....."

"NYO"
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