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MaBSTOA Nostalgia ("Take 2")
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 54
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 773
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
It's hard to believe that these now-classic "Fishbowl" scenes were snapped over a half-century ago........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154301

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154084

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154201

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154028

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154046

Pic 154084, with a recycled 1963 front roll sign from within the 3450's which had, in 1963, originally been assigned to 132nd Street (I saw a '63 photo taken - on Nov. 24, 1963, specifically - next to the New York Public Library's main branch of a 2 bus assigned to #3459, seen here, courtesy Getty Images).

As for Pic 154046 - ah, the days when some if not all billboards were hand-painted instead of pre-printed sections blown up and pasted on such walls. Truly a lost art, along with hand-lettering in general.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 11516
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
What buses replaced the soon-to-be-scrapped Fishbowls seen in the IRT yard? (1974); was this a case of old Fishbowls being replaced by new Fishbowls, or were there service cut at the time that rendered these "First Generation" Fishbowls surplus?

I.I.N.M., it was the 1973 order of 'Fishbowls' (4800-4859 from earlier in the year, 4860-4919 from later, I think all of the latter went to Kingsbridge depot where those first-gens had been based in their last years) that rendered the remaining first-gen FACL/ST Fishbowls expendable. No doubt the first batch of 1974-77 Flxies (7300-7361) were on the roads at this point - but on the OA's end, only assigned out of Hudson Depot in Manhattan and only travelling on the routes assigned thereto (M11, M12, M13, M14, M15/M26, M16, M21), not until the next two orders (in 1975 and 1977) that the Bronx would get some of those newies. The service cuts, whatever they were, wouldn't have taken effect until 1975-76.


W.B.:

Once again, appreciate your always-intriguing historical input. Wink

Thinking back, I often wonder why any of the Jersey City-area indies did not purchase any of these first-generation Fishbowls when the "Em-Tee-Yay" retired them ("first generation" indy Fishbowls in my area were unheard of; the oldest of the Old Looks, MACKS, and WHITES were all replaced by "second-generation" Fishbowls, in the late 1960's)

In fact, the only "first generation" Fishbowls in my area were those operated by PSNJ/TNJ.

Though the very last ex-PS Fishbowls lasted in my area until about 1990 (and there weren't all that many remaining by that time), these were the newer models; I've seen circa-1980 photos showing first-generation ex-PSNJ Fishbowls awaiting scrapping.

Around 1988, that's when I remember the VOLVO articulateds (I HATED them!) and the MCI's killing off the suburban Fishbowls inherited from the companies NJT absorbed);earlier in the 1980's, I remember seeing the Flex Metros starting to appear in my area.

I also know that NJT purchased a number of ex "Em-Tee-Yay" GRUMMANS, after they had been re-manufactured by FLXIBLE........

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:56 pm; edited 3 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 11516
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
It's hard to believe that these now-classic "Fishbowl" scenes were snapped over a half-century ago........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154301

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154084

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154201

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154028

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154046

Pic 154084, with a recycled 1963 front roll sign from within the 3450's which had, in 1963, originally been assigned to 132nd Street (I saw a '63 photo taken - on Nov. 24, 1963, specifically - next to the New York Public Library's main branch of a 2 bus assigned to #3459, seen here, courtesy Getty Images).

As for Pic 154046 - ah, the days when some if not all billboards were hand-painted instead of pre-printed sections blown up and pasted on such walls. Truly a lost art, along with hand-lettering in general.


W.B.:

Thanks for the additional info; yes, I well recall those long-ago days, when you'd see workmen with long rolls of ad sections, affixing them with paste to a given billboard.

Too, the "pasted on" ad posters in the subways; I recall PATH replacing the pasted-on station ads (like the NYC subways, there were recessed panels in the station walls) with metal-framed "TDI" posters.

Too, recall when, back in the day, when all outside ad posters on buses were cardboard.......ahhh, memories.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 11516
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here seen in 1980, this ex-PSNJ/TNJ "first generation" Fishbowl was clearly OOS; PS took delivery of its first Fishbowls in 1960......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?156466

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 11516
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"LAFAYETTE & GREENVILLE"/"HUDSON BUS" (Jersey City "indies") GRUMMANS; I'm guessing these might have been ex-"Em-Tee-Ay".....?

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153689

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153647

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 11516
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out-of-service GRUMMANS at the Brooklyn Army Terminal.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154231

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 11516
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA nostalgia, GRUMMAN-style.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154075

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 11516
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If only these buses had been granted the power of speech, if only for a day......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153793

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153795

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153792

In the span of a short decade, buses such as these witnessed all of the heights and all of the despair of the 1960's.

The decade began with much hope and optimism for the future; NASA's space programs were in their heyday, and great strides were being made in the fight for civil rights.

These humble, workaday buses carried the masses through the Cold War, the Vietnam War, and several senseless, tragic, brutal assassinations (President John F. Kennedy, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Senator Robert F. Kennedy)

Think of the conversations heard aboard these buses, throughout those often turbulent times.

What these buses must have heard, over the years......

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:55 am; edited 4 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 11516
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of history (in relation to New York buses)......

In Alex Haley's book on Malcolm X, it says that, during the massive 1965 explosion and blaze that destroyed "Mosque Number 7", which was located at 116th Street & Lenox, that ".........three bus lines were rerouted, as was southbound IRT subway service........"

I cannot help but be curious as to what three bus lines these were, and what equipment was then being used; regarding the IRT, by this time, all IRT service was then being served by postwar SMEE equipment, with the exception of the remaining prewar cars assigned to the Bronx 3rd Avenue El.

Malcolm was gunned down at the Audubon Ballroom, at Broadway & W. 165th St.; again, I'm wondering what bus routes ran nearest to this tragic scene..

New York's vast transit network, indeed, witnessed every triumph and every tragedy of the 1960's........

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 54
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 773
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Speaking of history (in relation to New York buses)......

In Alex Haley's book on Malcolm X, it says that, during the massive 1965 explosion and blaze that destroyed "Mosque Number 7", which was located at 116th Street & Lenox, that ".........three bus lines were rerouted, as was southbound IRT subway service........"

I cannot help but be curious as to what three bus lines these were, and what equipment was then being used; regarding the IRT, by this time, all IRT service was then being served by postwar SMEE equipment, with the exception of the remaining prewar cars assigned to the Bronx 3rd Avenue El.

Malcolm was gunned down at the Audubon Ballroom, at Broadway & W. 165th St.; again, I'm wondering what bus routes ran nearest to this tragic scene..

New York's vast transit network, indeed, witnessed every triumph and every tragedy of the 1960's........

At the point of Malcolm X's assassination, where the Audubon Ballroom was located had the #2 Fifth and Seventh Avenues line and #5 Fifth Avenue/Riverside Drive line, plus perhaps M-100 Broadway-Kingsbridge, passing through. (Over on Amsterdam Avenue, several blocks east, the M-101 ran through.) This was several months before that #2 route (ex-FACCo) was "merged" by MaBSTOA with ex-NYCO #2 Park Avenue South and Madison Avenue (via 116th Street - which, along with #7 Broadway, Columbus and Lenox Avenues, would have passed through Mosque #7) to form a unified, integrated singular route with two branches - the NYCO #2 turned into the "Lenox Avenue branch" (7.5 route miles), the FACCo #2 into the "Seventh Avenue branch" (9.48 route miles) and numbering modified to 2A through 1974. (To that end, ex-FACCo #2's depot assignment, heretofore 132nd Street, was switched to ex-NYCO #2's then-depot at 146th Street when Fifth and Madison became one way on Jan. 14, 1966.) I do have to wonder, given what you said about the 1960's, what Harlem avenues #2 or #2A would have run if Lenox or Seventh Avenues had demonstrations, street fairs, etc.

Of course, come March 2, 1969, the Lenox #2 branch was no more, having been replaced by a "new" Third/Lexington/Lenox Avenues line, M-101A (today's M102). I put "new" in quotes due to it, north of 24th Street, being a de facto revival of the old NYCO #4 Lexington and Lenox Avenues line, the only difference (besides its City Hall terminus) being that its northbound route path was Third Avenue.

Also what would have passed through Mosque #7 was the #20 116th Street Crosstown (today's M116). So there you have it: #2, #7 and #20 would have been rerouted elsewhere when that mosque caught fire. #2 was served by 146th Street, and would have used anywhere from NYCO-era to 1958 FACL Old Looks, to the newer (1964) second-order MaBSTOA fleet. #7 and #20 were based out of 100th Street, where bus #2969 where The Honeymooners cast posed inside in 1955 was based; those same types of buses may've been used, certainly the selfsame '64 OA Fishbowls. (#7 was there from 1964 to 1966, reverted to 146th after the day after the transit strike was ended.)

Meanwhile, as to Pic 153792, didn't that bus (or its ilk) serve Routes 3, 4 and 5 along Fifth Avenue just a few months before? This was after the remaining MaBSTOA Old Looks with the 'box' covers for the front roll signs, were transferred to outer borough 'Tee-Yay' routes.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

OUTSTANDING and THOROUGH information; THANK YOU for taking the time to post all this! Wink

In speaking of marches, protests, demonstrations, etc., surely there were many instances in the 1960's and 70's (and, of course, beyond) where the buses of various routes would have had to have been rerouted.

These days, there have been detours due to BLM marches (both peaceful and otherwise); too, as I approached my teens in the later 1960's, it seemed as though there were massive anti-'Nam protests every week, with massive crowds and traffic diversions.

Too, think of the countless parades and processions that marched along 5th Avenue over the decades; there were also many anti-War protests in the Washington Square and UN areas, which would have, of course, affected ex-FACCo. and ST routes.

There were, also, riots in Brooklyn, during "the long, hot, summer of '64"; certainly, this would have affected "Tee-Yay" bus (and subway) service in the borough.

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further:

As I have also read much about the history of the Brotherhood of Pullman Porters over the years, I've seen photos of 125th St. blocked off, for their rallies/parades (both in the TARS and ST eras)

A re-route of traffic on 125th would not have been an issue for the ST buses, but, with the rail-bound streetcars, of course, it would have been a different matter altogether........

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surface Transit MACKS dominate W. 125th St. in this 1949 photo (note now-redundant TARS rails).......

https://www.newdavesrailpix.com/tars/htm/tars153.htm

(courtesy: davesrailpix)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of historical interest*:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audubon_Ballroom (the main facade of this historic building reflects the early years of the 20th century, when many public buildings sported magnificent, flamboyant, and artistic architecture, indeed the proud work of gifted craftsmen)

*Sidenote:

Did some quick research, and read that the "M5" is the nearest MTA bus route to the former Audubon Ballroom; nearest subway lines are the (IND) "A" and "C".........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding SURFACE/MaBSTOA territory......

".......like him, most were from the South, and were drawn to an expanding Harlem bordered by 128th St. and 145th St........"

"......during the heyday of the Pullman Company, many porters resided in New York, the vast majority of which were from Harlem......"

(from: RISING FROM THE RAILS", Larry Tye)

Again, as these hard-working men did not (for the most part) own an automobile, it would come as no surprise these men used public transportation to travel between home and GCT, and also, Pennsylvania Station.

Of course, the subway was the quicker option, but, I'm sure, there were those who used the buses (or TARS streetcars)........

"NYO"
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