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traildriver
Joined: 26 Mar 2011 Posts: 2459 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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N4 Jamaica wrote: | Image 140955 is one of the clearest yet, showing the well-kept buildings of Coney Island that were demolished in the name of urban renewal. My question is "Cui bono?" Who profited? The 1960's tower apartments are now sixty years old, perhaps the age of the buildings in this photo. Maybe some of these frame buildings needed better wiring and plumbing, but nowadays (in my opinion) too many senior apartments are built of manufactured wood, as evidenced in the spectacular fire at Edgewater, NJ, in January, 2015.
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Also noticeable in this series of Norton's Point Line photos is the heavy ridership for a route just over a mile long. In my memory it was not a free transfer from the subway but cost an extra nickel. |
Since you mentioned it, I have wondered: Where were there free transfer's between subway or elevated lines, and streetcar lines?
Or...between subway lines and buses? IIRC, there was one at the end of the Canarsie line toward the pier....where else throughout the city? |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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traildriver:
Some time back, I can recall a discussion on SubChat on this subject; it also creeps up from time-to-time when the discussion is about former passageways/mezzanines where transfers were once required, to travel beyond the subway system.
Though this is a subject I am NOT any sort of authority on, the following is from Stan Fischler's "UPTOWN, DOWNTOWN":
".....on July 1, 1948, the fares of the NYCTS was raised to ten cents; two-cent transfers between surface line trolleys, the elevateds, and the subways was established in the Bronx. This arrangement ended on June 30, 1952......"
"......on June 13, 1942, the Second Avenue elevated abandoned operations from South Ferry to Queensboro Plaza. For patrons formerly served by the trains from Queens, a paper issuance transfer was established between the 3rd Avenue line and the IRT's Queens line at 42nd St......."
"......on June 12, 1940, a paper transfer issuance was established between the El (3rd Avenue) and subway stations of the IND's Concourse line at 155th St......"
"NYO"
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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On a related note (regarding transfers to/from the subway) these two pages might be of interest (especially the second page)......
www.subwaynut.com/bmt/canarsiel/index.php
(courtesy: subwaynut) |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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traildriver
Joined: 26 Mar 2011 Posts: 2459 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote: | On a related note (regarding transfers to/from the subway) these two pages might be of interest (especially the second page)......
www.subwaynut.com/bmt/canarsiel/index.php
(courtesy: subwaynut) |
Thanks! The caption tells it...that was the only bus stop within the subway fare control zone in the City. I wonder how many people thru the years tried to 'sneak in' thru the bus portals?
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The only other buses that operate within subway fare control area's that I am aware of are the MBTA Silver Line subway stations...their bus portal seems much more secure, as trespasser's would have to walk down a subway tunnel to access the station platforms, not to mention modern intruder detection systems in place... |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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traildriver:
You are welcome!
This topic made me wonder if (Newark) City Subway passengers, debarking the cars at Broad St., could have purchased transfers for the PS buses that then served the adjacent PSNJ terminal (this was, of course, all PSNJ "territory")
Another interesting thought to ponder is what the situation might have been like at St. George, had the MTA taken over the Ferry operations as well as the SIRT. Recall, both the CNJ and the DL&W included the ferry fare to New York in the price of their weekly and monthly (rail) commutation tickets.......
"NYO" |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Also from "UPTOWN, DOWNTOWN":
"...........on June 1, 1927, a new passageway was opened between the 3rd Avenue El station (the El, like all other Manhattan elevateds, was, of course, operated by the INTERBOROUGH) and IRT subway station at 149th st. and 3rd Avenue, discontinuing the use of paper transfers, and eliminating the heavy crowds crossing that busy intersection........"
"NYO" |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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From the same book:
".......On December 22, 1950, service on the 3rd Avenue el was discontinued between South Ferry to Chatham Square, and, also, between Gun Hill Road and 241st St. A paper transfer issuance was then implemented between the city-owned bus line and the El at Chatham Square, and between the El and the IRT/BMT subway stations below City Hall......"
"NYO"
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Photos and diagrams on this page on the IND's 167th St. station; note that, at one time (until 1948) a "trolley mezzanine" allowed for the movement of passengers transferring between the subway trains and the trolleys (TARS cars)*.......
www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/167st.html
(Note that the replacement buses used the former trolley platforms until about 1990) |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:43 am Post subject: |
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All:
The aforementioned IND-streetcar transfer point was the only such "setup" in the City.
Though there was the underground Delancey Street terminal for B&QT streetcars coming over the "Willy B" until the late 1940's, there was no "mezzanine" for passengers transferring between the BMT trains and the streetcars at Delancey,, as was the case at the IND's 167th St. station.
To date, I have never seen any photos whatsoever, showing the "pedestrian connection" between the trolley terminal and the BMT station......
"NYO" |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Before moving on from the subject of underground streetcar stations in Manhattan, let us recall the underground station that served "Bridge" cars from Queens until 1957 (buses also used this cramped facility).....
www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/qborobr.html |
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N4 Jamaica
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 858 Location: Long Island
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, but this was not Third Avenue Railway System (red and cream streetcars), but rather New York Railways (Green Lines), which was bustituted by New York City Omnibus. In 2020, there is no MTA bus service on Park Avenue South north of East 25th Street. |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:19 am Post subject: |
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N4 Jamaica wrote: |
Sorry, but this was not Third Avenue Railway System (red and cream streetcars), but rather New York Railways (Green Lines), which was bustituted by New York City Omnibus. In 2020, there is no MTA bus service on Park Avenue South north of East 25th Street. |
Joe:
Thanks for the correction; I only realized my mistake after I had posted the link, and did go back to correct it right away.
"GREEN LINE" streetcars were "kin", so to speak, with those operating on the TARS network, as they both utilized underground conduits; the only other US streetcar system to use conduits was Washington DC.
Here again, except for the most die-hard transit historians, TARS are the only streetcars associated with Manhattan; this could also be because the NYRys. cars went over to buses a decade or so before the last TARS cars in Manhattan.
Too, unlike the TARS system, there are not all that many photos out there depicting NYRys. operations.......
"NYO" |
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22648 Location: NEW JOISEY
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Even more obscure today, the Second Avenue Railway......
https://www.newdavesrailpix.com/nyc/htm/mnyr04.htm
(courtesy: davesrailpix)
Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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