BusTalk

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BRT/LIRR "joint service".......

Though hard to believe today, there was (between 1913 and 1917) a "joint service" to Rockaway Beach from Chambers Street, operated as a joint BRT/LIRR service.

At Chambers St., these seasonal trains shared the easternmost platforms with Sea Beach subway trains (using the Manhattan Bridge tracks to reach Brooklyn)


One of the connections between the BRT and the LIRR was located at Chestnut Street on the Brooklyn Broadway El) at the other at Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues (Fifth Avenue El)

Hard to believe, but the LIRR also had a checked baggage room at one of the Chambers St. mezzanines, through 1917!

Too, look at photos of the earliest IRT cars, and compare them to LIRR's earliest MU's, the MP-41's; both types of cars were virtually identical, even down to the maker lights (the LIRR cars had large headlights, however)

From any of a number of sources (in books and online) you will read of a number of proposals to operate through LIRR service through INTERBOROUGH tunnels (man, talk about the ULTIMATE one-seat ride!)

To this day, no photo of an MP-41 has ever been found running on BRT trackage.......indeed, this would be QUITE a find, if one ever surfaced from the depths of some dim, dusty, long forgotten archive!

"NYO"

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Here's a very interesting historical page.......

https://www.arrts-arrchives.com/irtconn.html

See also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Branch

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LIRR.......or......IND.......??

Here's an interesting page on the long-abandoned underground Long Island Railroad's WOODHAVEN station; note vintage photo of when the station was still in use.......a train of IND "Arnines" would have looked QUITE at home at the platform!

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/woodhaven.html

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Some interesting photos here (as well as a map), regarding the IND's never-built "Second System", and provisions still visible today.......

http://www.columbia.edu.com/~brennan/abandoned/indsecsys.html

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Upper level of the IND Roosevelt Avenue station (never used).........

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/roosevelt.html

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Thoughts on the "INDEPENDENT".......

Of all three subway systems, the "INDEPENDENT" (IMHO) had the greatest potential for further expansion and development; had the "Second System" of the IND been built, one can only imagine what impact these new routes might have had on the areas they served.

Like the older BMT, the IND's cars were closer to the overall dimensions (at least, width-wide) of the standard commuter coaches of that era.

Too, recall, the semi-suburban interiors of the "Standards"; it's important to remember that, when the BRT;s new "steels: were entering service in 1915, many areas of Brooklyn, indeed, more quite "suburban" than "urban".

Also, like the commuter cars of that era, window shades were also provided on the earliest Standards.

The new IND cars were, at the time, the epitome of modern subway car development; they, indeed, looked quite state-of-the-art, compared the older, narrower IRT cars, not to mention the wooden rolling stock that then ruled the elevated lines.

Had the 1939/1940 IND World's Fair line not been ripped up, it would have been interesting to see how much "on line" development" might have resulted; too, had the City retained and extended this route, how far might have extensions gone?

Regarding the Dyre Avenue shuttle, using old open-gate El cars on the ROW of the abandoned NYW&B (which was, oddly enough, thought as an IND operation), operating longer, wider IND cars on the Dyre Avenue line, and further into former "Westchester" territory would have brought some semblence of "heavy-duty commuting" back to the area previously served by the Westchester's big MU's.

Too, recall the ambitious plans to operate 8th Avenue IND trains over the lower level of the GWB (the lower level, as it turned out, was not built until the late 1950's/early 1960's) to Fort Lee, NJ, where a large multi-modal transit hub was to have been built.

One can only imagine what impact a NY-NJ subway line such as this might have had in the area, had it ever become a reality.

Remember, also, the BMT's upper and lower level terminal at City Hall; plans originally called for for local trains to terminate on the upper level, while expresses would have continued on through the lower level, and then through the Montaque St. tunnels to Brooklyn.

It was later decided to run the expresses to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge, and run the locals down a ramp at the south end of the City Hall station, and use this level for off-hour train storage........

"NYO"

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Track diagrams/photos for the BMT's City Hall terminal.........

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/citybmt.html

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Hoyt-Schmerhorn (my all-time favorite IND station, btw!) and Court St. (Transit Museum); here, you will find track diagrams, maps, photos, etc.....

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/court.html

[traildriver]

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traildriver:

According the the Brennan page, passenger service to the WOODHAVEN station ended in 1976.

Declining ridership was what ultimately doomed the station, but, one cannot help but wonder what today's transit picture might be like, had this LIRR line, somehow, been converted for subway use.

I've seen 1930's-era photos of the platform area of the LIRR's Flatbush Avenue terminal, when only the smaller MP-41's ventured there; these cars were roughly of IRT dimensions (the MP-41's also used IRT-style markers)

The track layout the Flatbush Avenue terminal was interesting, in that Tacks #'s 1, 2, and 3 were shorter to the other tracks, in order to conform to way that the IRT adjoined the station.

This restricted these tracks to local service only, and reduced the flexibility of the station's operations.

The design of the aforementioned MP-41's were, interestingly enough, adapted by George Gibbs from his subway car design.

I have also seen a few interior photos of the MP-41's, and they were virtually identical to not only the earliest INTERBOROUGH subway cars, but also, the elevated equipment of that era.

A number of MP-41's lasted well into the 1950's, running in various local services..........

"NYO"

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Here's an interesting page on the long-forgotten SEDGWICK AVENUE station, where once 9th Avenue El trains ventured underground......

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/sedgwick.html

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In connection with the previous post, this page deals with the history (there are also a number of very interesting vintage and modern-era photos, here) of the IRT's 9th Avenue El and the later Polo Grounds shuttle.......

http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_9th_Avenue_Elevated-Polo_Grounds_Shuttle

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

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9th Avenue El (and shuttle) nostalgia.......

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?8295

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?8296

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45172

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6924

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?47747

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?87737

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?136350

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

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On the "Els"........

it is interesting that, though the IRT's subway lines snaked and slithered their sinewy way through the Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens, ONLY "el" lines in Brooklyn operate by the IRT were those lines carryinf SUBWAY trains.

Remember, the BRT/BMT was indeed "The Almighty King", rapid transit-wise in Brooklyn, and their spidery El lines seemed to be almost everywhere.

Only the "Manhattan" els, (2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 9th Avenue els) were operated by the INTERBOROUGH, and the only BMT El operations in Manhattan were those lines that terminated at the massive Park Row complex until 1944.

I always found it interesting that some of the last cars to operate on the 3rd Avenue El were actually ex-BMT cars (the "Q's").

It was found that the "Q's" were too heavy for the 3rd Avenue El, so they had their trucks swapped out for trucks salvaged from the scrapped "Composite" cars; so here you had BMT cars riding on IRT trucks!

The Bronx section of the 3rd Avenue El (served by prewar IRT cars until 1969), was finally abandoned in 1973; certainly, had the MTA not pulled the plug on the El, it might very well still be in service today, providing a much faster ride than the buses that once rumbled and snorted beneath its tracks.

In 1958, the venerable "Q" cars (now sporting lower roofs, due to clearance issues) replaced the last of the open-platform convertible El cars on the Myrtle Avenue el, where they ran until that historic line closed in 1969.......

"NYO"

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Recalling the "Q's"........

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24376

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6778

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?17437

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26342

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?113394

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)