BusTalk

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Does anyone know about how the New Flyer DE40LF and the Gillig Advantage Hybrid compare in terms of fuel economy and performance? They both use the same hybrid technology, although the DE40LF uses a Cummins ISL engine while the Gillig Advantage Hybrid uses the Cummins ISB.

KCRam3500 · Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 32 Location: Lake Hopatcong NJ

A number of factors go into this...

- type of hybrid system: A bus that runs entirely on its electric motors can use the ISB because it doesn't need the extra torque. A split system means the engine will need to move the bus on its own under some circumstances.

- size and weight requirements: If the bus' physical compartment restricts the engine that can be used based on what the hybrid system takes up, the physically smaller ISB may be the only option. A heavier bus may also want to use the smaller lighter engine to save weight.

- maintenance: Even though the ISL may be "overkill" for the needs of the specific bus model, if the operator's fleet has ISLs, it's easier to use that engine, even though its power may not be necessary.

Even though they have very few hybrids, NJ Transit is looking to standardize on engines. When the NABI order is complete, all transits, suburbans, and artics will have the Cat C9. The last two batches of MCIs came with Cat C13s instead of Detroit 60s, so NJT really likes what they're getting with the Kitty in terms of power, economy, and reliability.

As an ISB owner (in my Dodge Ram 3500, thus my screen name), I can tell you it's a terrific engine.

-

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Just to remind you, the ISB performs poorly with CNG. The engine takes a while to kick in on ABQ RIDE's Thomas SLF232 CNG (buses 401-435) buses. For comparison, ABQ RIDE's Neoplan AN440 CNGs (buses 301-340, powered by Cummins L10G engines) perform much better especially uphill. Also for comparison, ABQ RIDE's only diesel-powered SLF (bus 436, an SLF235) takes off like a rocket, even though it also uses a Cummins ISB engine.

Does anyone know about how the New Flyer DE40LF and the Gillig Advantage Hybrid compare in terms of fuel economy and performance? They both use the same hybrid technology, although the DE40LF uses a Cummins ISL engine while the Gillig Advantage Hybrid uses the Cummins ISB.

KCRam3500 · Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 32 Location: Lake Hopatcong NJ

CNG makes all the difference in the world for otherwise identical engines. The L10 is the predecessor to the ISL (although the displacement was reduced from 10 to 8.9 liters on the newer engine). A diesel L10 will outperform an L10G just as your example of ISB vs B5.9-G.

The Cummins B5.9-G CNG engine for buses is rated at 230 hp and 500 lb-ft of torque... the ISB diesel is rated at 260/620. That's a 24% increase in torque for the diesel, and will really improve acceleration. The ISL-G rating is up to 320/1000, while the ISL diesel is up to 330/1100 - much closer, so the performance difference won't be as obvious between those two engines.

The Cummins bus page can be found at http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/applications/shuttle07.jsp

Waynejay · Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject:

RailBus63 · Moderator Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 1063

The Orion VII hybrids I've ridden in New York City had pretty good acceleration - better than the Gillig hybrids we have here in Syracuse.

As far as performance and fuel economy - initial test results indicated that series-hybrid buses such as the Orion VII did better in stop-and-go urban driving, while parallel-hybrid buses such as the New Flyer and Gillig models did better on routes with fewer stops and/or highway driving. It will be interesting to see how these results change as each technology matures and improves.

pc2871 · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 21

Series Hybrids will do better with the same engine than their parallel hybrid counterparts if all else is equal.
my understanding is that the NYC Hybrids are set to the lowest possible acceleration, and yet they are not slouches.

DE60LF · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 142 Location: Albuquerque, NM

So I guess in terms of performance, New Flyer with the ISL is the winner. However, what about fuel economy? Specifically, I would like to know how the DE40LF(R) (ISL) compares to the Gillig Advantage Hybrid (ISB) in terms of fuel economy. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any TAs that operate both models in their fleet. Since Orion uses a different hybrid drivetrain, the comparison may be skewed depending on several factors.

ABQ RIDE's DE60LF buses perform very well, however, they use CAT C9 engines.

ABQ RIDE was actually very close to purchasing Gillig Advantage Hybrid buses via a piggyback order led by San Joaquin RTD, however, the plan was rejected by ABQ RIDE director Greg Payne. ABQ RIDE has selected the DE40LFR as their TMC RTS replacement.