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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 52
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 574
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
From the Ogden book on FACCo.:

"........along with most other bus companies, Fifth Avenue Coach Co. was ordered by the Department of Defense Transportation to reduce tire mileage and gas consumption with the onset of WW2........."

".......In December, 1942, Route #9 was discontinued (again), Route #19 was operated only during the rush hours, and Route #20 was cut back to 55th St. and 12th Avenue....."

".........The Convent Avenue branch of route #3 together with Route #'s 6, 16, and 20 were all abandoned in June, 1943, but resumed in August, except that Route #16 stayed out of service until November, 1945........."

November 1, 1945, specifically.

But it seems like the text of Mr. Ogden's book was essentially copied verbatim from the July-August 1971 article about FACCo in Motor Coach Age. That may explain why the post-1956 history may have been so glossed over.

#19 would be discontinued on March 1, 1962 when the TWU strike that knocked out FACL and ST began, but kind of resumed as an alternate, rush-hours-only branch of the (ex-FACCo) #5 on Dec. 6, 1965 - 23 years to the day after #19 was reduced to rush hours only - and would run until on or about June 26, 1988 when it was discontinued for good due to chronically low ridership (a day which also saw the demise of ex-Avenue B & East Broadway's M8 Grand Street route and the ex-16, now Q89, and for the same reasons).
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 52
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 574
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
When a garage has so little space allocated to it that buses had to be parked on the street, that indeed signals the need for a larger garage with ample storage.

Which would not happen until 1972 when Pier 57 was requisitioned by MaBSTOA to house their Hudson depot, thus enabling the closure of 12th Street.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7014
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Again, great input, as well as some historical trivia.

A city like New York still would utilize (either old or new) "neighborhood" bus garages/depots; here in northern New Jersey, AFAIK, the only survivor that I know of "neighborhood" garages in my general area is NJT's former "ORANGE & BLACK" (later "MAPLEWOOD EQUIPMENT COMPANY") garage in Fairview (Anderson Avenue)

Most of the buses based there are used on the #159/#159R (9500/9600 series NEOPLAN artics and 5200 series NABIs.

When I was growing up, "neighborhood" garages were simply an accostomed fixture in many local neighborhoods.

When NJT opened the new MEADOWLANDS facility in the early 1990's, older garages closed (with the exception of the Fairview garage); that this garage is still used by NJT, frankly, still amazes me.

Getting back to New York, with the general overall layout of the MTA's bus network, it makes sense to have depots that are spread out among different areas.

A recollection I have from the 1970's, is looking out from Weehawken (using the pay binoculars) and looking out over the Hudson and seeing ORANGE & BLACK buses stored in what appeared to be an elevated lot on the West Side.

I cannot common further on this; I am going back well over 40 years, here.

Regarding Pier #57, wasn't that a former MARINE & AVIATION pier?

"NYO"
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MaBSTOA 15



Age: 65
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rechecked my sources and found that New York Railways did have a carbarn on 99th Street and Lexington Avenue... NYCO had a garage on 100th Street and Lexington Avenue; therefore, the same structure.

In 1939, Fifth Avenue Coach is listed as having four garages, three in Manhattan = 132nd Street; 102nd Street and 88th Street (both of these on bthe east side perhaps along Madison Avenue). Queens = 76th Street and Northern Boulevard.

In 1940, New York City Omnibus had five garages all in Manhattan: 155th Street, 146th Street, 100th Street, 54th Street, and 12th Street.

Surface Transportation , in 1956, had five garages, three in Manhattan and two in the Bronx. They were Kingsbridge, Amsterdam, Second Avenue, West Farms, and Coliseum.

Eastside/Comprehensive Omnibus had depots at 92nd Street, 100th Street under city ownership they also had a garage on East 108th Street and a storage yard on East 128th Street and Second Avenue.

BTW, in Ogden's book, page 16, is a picture of a Fifth Avenue Coach, #1138, an open top double-decker exiting the NYCO depot on 54th Street and 9th Avenue. Perhaps following US government orders, FACO based some routes at this depot in order to cut down on tire and fuel consumption. The bus appears to have pneumatic tires common on these open double-deckers during WWII.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All:

While on the subject of garages/depots, I've always wondered why some will refer to an open bus storage yard as a "garage", when there is no building, outside of perhaps a small structure for drivers/personnel.

IMHO, if an open yard is ADJACENT to an actual GARAGE.....THEN it can be considered a PART of the garage.

Here in New Jersey, PSNJ had a number of streetcar storage yards that were far removed from the nearest barn; these yards were used to store cars during the non-rush hours, and the location of these yards enabled many "gap" and "short turn" cars to provide extra service during peak periods.

Certain PSNJ barns had yards adjacent to them, which, unlike a regular storage yard, was also used by cars filling in during the rush hours; many "short turn" rush hour runs used these locations as their terminals/starting points.

In Manhattan, if course, real estate is beyond astronomical in value, and few, if any, suitable locations could be used as bus storage yards.

Of course, these days, this would both be highly uneconomic and unfeasible...........

Just Your's Truly's 2 1/2 cents worth, here......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA 15:

Once again, greatly appreciate your input.

I have always found the subject of bus garages/depots/yards to be a most interesting subject unto itself, that (at least to me) never seems to warrant much discussion.

When I was growing up in Union City back in the 60's, PSNJ had a huge two-block garage (locally known as "the carbarns") between 27th and 29th Streets (NJT closed this historic facility in the early 90's)

The buses that ran by our old apartment building (just off Hudson Boulevard) were NHBL buses (North Hudson Boulevard Lines); these buses ran north from Journal Square to Nungessers; the SHBL (South Hudson Boulevard) buses ran from Journal Square south through to the tip of Bayonne.

Most locals referred to these buses simply as "Boulevard Buses".

As with the large "HUDSON BUS" garage on Tonnelle Avenue, the garage where the SHBL buses were stored/serviced at the end of the line also served DROGIN and RED & TAN buses, as well as NHBL buses.

For many, many years (my memories go back to the early 60's and into the 70's) there was an "old-tyme" service station on Tonnelle Avenue in North Bergen, near 45th St; this facility was used by several local companies for minor repairs/servicing. By the 70's, I remember seeing BLUE & WHITE buses here as well.

Getting back to New York, I am now regretting not "doing the buses" in years past, as I did the subways; I now only wish I had ridden the buses and visited at least a few of the depots.

Despite the many hundreds of historic NYCTA/MaBSTOA/MTA bus photos on nycsubway.org. the photos showing the garages and bus storage yards are most certainly in the ultra-minority.

Oh, yes....there are SOME, but, IMHO, there are not as many as there could be.......

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 52
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 574
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA 15 wrote:
I rechecked my sources and found that New York Railways did have a carbarn on 99th Street and Lexington Avenue... NYCO had a garage on 100th Street and Lexington Avenue; therefore, the same structure.

In 1939, Fifth Avenue Coach is listed as having four garages, three in Manhattan = 132nd Street; 102nd Street and 88th Street (both of these on bthe east side perhaps along Madison Avenue). Queens = 76th Street and Northern Boulevard.

In 1940, New York City Omnibus had five garages all in Manhattan: 155th Street, 146th Street, 100th Street, 54th Street, and 12th Street.

Surface Transportation , in 1956, had five garages, three in Manhattan and two in the Bronx. They were Kingsbridge, Amsterdam, Second Avenue, West Farms, and Coliseum.

Eastside/Comprehensive Omnibus had depots at 92nd Street, 100th Street under city ownership they also had a garage on East 108th Street and a storage yard on East 128th Street and Second Avenue.

BTW, in Ogden's book, page 16, is a picture of a Fifth Avenue Coach, #1138, an open top double-decker exiting the NYCO depot on 54th Street and 9th Avenue. Perhaps following US government orders, FACO based some routes at this depot in order to cut down on tire and fuel consumption. The bus appears to have pneumatic tires common on these open double-deckers during WWII.

Which NYCO route(s) would have been based out of 155th Street, and when would that depot/garage have closed? By 1951 NYCO's depot count was four (12th, 54th, 100th and 146th). And I remember a 1960 article in The New York Times - around the time of longtime Fifth Avenue Coach Lines president John E. McCarthy's death - that FACL had sold its 102nd Street garage; when would they have disposed of 88th? And which routes would the three Manhattan depots have handled, before they were all consolidated into 132nd? (I know 15 - Jackson Heights and 16 - Elmhurst Crosstown were out of that 76th / Northern depot / garage.)

As for a FACCo double-decker out of 54th, let's not forget that, besides the war situation and ODT restrictions, FACCo and NYCO were "affiliates," owned by the same (out-of-town) firm in those days.

And as for Surface's array of depots, I wonder which routes during that period were assigned out of Coliseum. I know that several which were assigned out of Second Avenue (which they designated "Central Bronx") later were transferred to Coliseum in late 1962 by MaBSTOA when Second Avenue (I presume within the area of that storage yard) replaced 100th and 108th Streets as the TA's depot for their then-six Manhattan routes (M-1 Madison-Chambers, M-3 49th-50th Streets, M-7 65th Street, M-11 York Avenue, M-13 Journal Building and M-15 First and Second Avenues).
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 52
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can also presume this was the back side of the 100th depot (the 1950-51 NYCO buses' numbers - 3081 and 3087 - all give away their origin, given bus assignment lists, as well as Rt. 2 Park Avenue South/Madison Avenue which was assigned there until 1964 and New Look #3143 from the late 1960 order):
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Now THOSE are what I call BUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

BEAUTIFUL portrait of the classic buses we "oldsters" knew and loved so well! Wink

Thanks for sharing with us here..... Very Happy

"NYO"
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