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Dateline: 1969 (also, other assorted vintage scenes)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22286
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..........just a few more old MaBSTOA views before your's truly signs off for the day......Wink

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?866

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?868

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?893

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1609

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 2379
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Fellows:

The vast and encyclopedic amount of MaBSTOA/Tee-Yay" roll sign (and bus) knowledge which you have generously shared here is truly beyond incredible.

This is EXACTLY the type of knowledge that truly BELONGS in print! Wink

In our posting and discussing the many vintage photos here, a few questions came to mind, that I'd like to post here:

1: When MaBSTOA began operations, what were the oldest buses in the fleet, and how long until they were retired?

2: Were all roll signs on MaBSTOA buses hand-cranked, or did some of the fleet have electrically-operated signs?

3: Today, what former MaBSTOA routes have changed the LEAST since the early days?

4: When were the last original MaBSTOA New Looks retired by the MTA?

Thanks in advance for any input.......much appreciated......Wink

Let's see:
1. TD-4506's from all three entities - Surface's being the worst of the lot (even with some of the most dilapidated replaced by FACL itself in 1957 with old FACCo and NYCO stock Xferred to Surface). No doubt the older TD-4502's and 4505's were retired prior to the MaBSTOA takeover (and certainly by the dawning of the MaBSTOA era the much earlier Yellow 740's were consigned to yellow-painted "work" status). The 4506's would have disappeared by 1964, the TDH-4507's by 1965, and the TDH-4509's (including the iconic 'Jackie Gleason bus', NYCO #2969) in the 1966-67 period.
2. I seem to recall the first electronically-operated roll signs were either the 1975 or 1977 order of Flxible 53102-6-1's. Definitely on the later set.
3. I'd say one that stands out is M2. Apart from the 1966 move of its NB route to Madison, and its 1966-74 rebranding as (M)2A. Probably M8 (ex M13), M23 (ex M15, M26) and M116 (ex M20) as well.
4. If you're referring to the first order for MaBSTOA - the 3301-3555 set - I seem to recall the last of those retired in or around 1977-78.
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MaBSTOA 15



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the electronically controlled sign curtains, I agree with W.B. in that the first ones without the hand crank, officially, were the Flxibles 53102-6-1 of 1975 or 1977.

However, the first should be the GM TDH-5303 with batwings. The side signs were controlled by two toggle switches (street side signs) next to the door control lever and by two push buttons on the rear door housing (curb side signs)



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MaBSTOA 15



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The NYCO & Surface TD-4502 and TD-4505, FACCo's Yellow Coach 740, & Surface's Mack C-50 (ex-FACCo) were not included in the Board of Estimate's condemnation resolution. They were mostly sold for scrap except that some were made intp salt spreaders.

All of MaBSTOA's Mack C-45, C-47 and nearly 400 TD-4506 & TD-4507 were retired after the arrival of the first TDH-5303s.

The arrival of the 6401-6900 series TDH-5303 started to replace the remaining 4507s, TDH-4509s and eliminated all of the ex-TA buses (TDH-4510 & TDH-5101).

The batwing buses replaced all remaining spring susoension buses, and Mack C-49s leaving a modern fleet of 1680 new look TDH-5301, TDH-5303, and 161 TDH-5106.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentlemen:

THANK YOU for your responses; this tells me exactly what I wanted to know; also appreciate the photos, MabSTOA 15! Wink

Though I had to be QUITE small, I still have some old, old memories of seeing "SURFACE WAY" Macks.


More clearly, though, I can indeed remember seeing (and riding) on the "square window" Old Looks; here in New Jersey, these were still common on the "indies" in my area back in the 60's, vanishing around 1966.

In closing, FACCo's rich history has been fabled and storied.....let's hope that, sometime in the future, we see a detailed, lavishly illustrated work om the MaBSTOA story hot the shelves (hint, hint!) Wink

Thanks again for your tremendous input.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In mentioning both FACCo. and SURFACE..........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3334

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1547

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1548

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3387

(courtesty: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few more......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2392

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3382

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3383

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3384

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Batwings definitely would have been reliant on such push-button technology. But I was referring to those without them. Still . . .
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
In mentioning both FACCo. and SURFACE..........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3334

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1547

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1548

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3387

(courtesty: bus.nycsubway.org)

#1548 would have been taken after 1959, given the 12A designation. And I'm going by the October 1958 Surface Transit/Westchester Street Transportation route map which mentioned Bx-10A/B, 14A/B, and 15A. 3001 would later have been renumbered 4901 and was part of what was retired come 1967.

#3387 was actually taken at Ninth Avenue and 50th Street. And was their third or fourth paint job and layout as under FACL (photos of 1700 exist from 1946 when they sported two-tone grey paint and 'Madison Avenue Coach Company, Inc.' branding).
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
A few more......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2392

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3382

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3383

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3384

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)

No way were #3382 or #3383 4/16/56 as (mis)dated on their respective pages. 4/16/57, definitely. The "Fifth Avenue Coach Lines Inc." markings are the key, plus the particular color scheme for 2502.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 2379
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA 15 wrote:
The NYCO & Surface TD-4502 and TD-4505, FACCo's Yellow Coach 740, & Surface's Mack C-50 (ex-FACCo) were not included in the Board of Estimate's condemnation resolution. They were mostly sold for scrap except that some were made into salt spreaders.

All of MaBSTOA's Mack C-45, C-47 and nearly 400 TD-4506 & TD-4507 were retired after the arrival of the first TDH-5303s.

The arrival of the 6401-6900 series TDH-5303 started to replace the remaining 4507s, TDH-4509s and eliminated all of the ex-TA buses (TDH-4510 & TDH-5101).

The batwing buses replaced all remaining spring suspension buses, and Mack C-49s leaving a modern fleet of 1680 new look TDH-5301, TDH-5303, and 161 TDH-5106.

I seem to remember after the third order (6401-6900) of 5303's arrived, while most 4509's were retired, some were still around - namely the "Jackie Gleason bus" 2969 which was apparently still at 100th Street depot, though some of the "cousins" of that same order were at different ex-Surface depots (with one apparently plying the Bx-29 route and another parked outside Kingsbridge). Those remaining 4509's would have gone to the crusher following the arrival of the fourth order (8301-8780) 5303's. A shame no known photos exist of 2969 "in action" either pre- or post-1956 (when NYCO on the sides gave way to FACL) or definitely after the OA takeover in '62. I think mostly that bus ran on the 18 (now M86 SBS).

It was the 740's that I remember seeing pics of as salt spreaders with MaBSTOA's lettering on top.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Thanks again for additional input! Wink

In regarding FACCo/ST/MaBSTOA, I can only imagine at how many vintage photos of these buses still exist today (photos that neither you nor I have ever seen), stored away in someone's dark closet, attic, or basement.

IMHO, it also seems reasonable to assume that the bus enthusiasts of that era were out in full force, making sure they caught on film the last days of the classic "Queen Mary" double-deckers.

Though the double-deckers were getting all the attention, common sense would dictate that the single-deck buses were also the focus of many enthusiast's cameras.

You and I have both, numerous times, discussed how the Ogden book on FACCo. virtually gave no coverage to the New Looks; this, as I have said before, was almost the equivalent of a personal prejudice against the New Look, as though "they were not a TRUE 5th Avenue bus".

A chapter on the early MaBSTOA era also should have been included.

In the meantime, here's a few of the more interesting MaBSTOA bits from "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT BUSES" (Guy E. Martin).....

"............pictured here is a builder's photo of new GM TDH-5303 No. 8325, in 1966. This bus and nine others were equipped with experimental catalyctic mufflers for evaluation in New York. These buses were also the first to be air-conditioned and to have billboard advertising on each bus........"

"............lettered for SURFACE TRANSIT, but with the unmistakable slogan of FIFTH AVENUE COACH, GM TD-4506, No. 4013, appears as it would have when transferred to MaBSTOA. Most likely photographed at Freedomland in the Bronx, the bus would be re-numbered No. 1153 for MaBSTOA on April 22, 1963. The bus was transferred to SURFACE TRANSIT in 1957......"

".......during the strike, FACCo. transferred 110 "good" buses to the WESTCHESTER STREET TRANSPORTATION COMPANY"., a Westchester County subsidiary not affected by the strike. The condemnation resulted in 1,850 buses transferred to MaBSTOA........"

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The twilight era of MaBSTOA's hard-working Old Looks.........

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl?show?789

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?792

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?797

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timeless.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?804

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2972

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
In regarding FACCo/ST/MaBSTOA, I can only imagine at how many vintage photos of these buses still exist today (photos that neither you nor I have ever seen), stored away in someone's dark closet, attic, or basement.

That is literally how Frederic Kramer's book Building The Independent Subway came about. The pics in that book - dealing with construction of the IND - were literally found in a dumpster somewhere, either 'Tee-Yay' headquarters or other pertinent grounds.
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