BusTalk Forum Index BusTalk
A Community Discussing Buses and Bus Operations Worldwide!
 
 BusTalk MainBusTalk Main FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups BusTalk GalleriesBusTalk Galleries   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

HORSEpower on Fifth Avenue
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BusTalk Forum Index -> New York City Buses
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: HORSEpower on Fifth Avenue Reply with quote

HORSE power.....BATTERY power.....GAS power (a tremendous wealth of information here, as well as many rare old photos and drawings)

"NYO"

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/f/fifth_avenue/fifth_avenue.htm

(Courtesy: Coachbuilt)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 52
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 521
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And all because the millionaires who lived along Fifth Avenue were opposed to streetcars being put on their thoroughfare.

I was reminded of this when Traffic Commissioner Henry Barnes first announced plans in 1965 to convert Fifth Avenue to one-way southbound (and Madison Avenue to one-way northbound). He floated the idea of allowing some buses to run along Park Avenue - and the well-heeled residents of that avenue were as opposed to that as the Fifth Avenue denizens, nearly a century before, were to streetcars. One could say, when the June 27, 2010 budget cutbacks led to the M1 bus (which had long penetrated into Park well into within the Grand Central area) having its northbound transition point to Madison moved from 39th Street and Park Avenue to 25th Street and Park Avenue South; and southbound, shifted all the way to Fifth Avenue up to 8th Street (after decades of transitioning to Park at 40th Street), that those Park Avenue residents in effect got their wish.

I saw that Coachbuilt profile of FACCo. Too bad they didn't go further, into the 1930's; the election of John E. McCarthy as president in 1939; the brief history of the 22 - Riverside Drive, Eighth and Fifth Avenues line (when exactly was it discontinued?); the elimination of open-topped double-deckers after 1946, and the "Queen Marys" in 1953; its being taken over by New York City Omnibus in 1954 after both entities were disposed of by Chicago-based Omnibus; the reorganization as Fifth Avenue Coach Lines, Inc. in 1956 (followed, just a few months later, by its acquisition of what was reorganized as Surface Transit, Inc.); and the flux in management following McCarthy's death in 1960, the hostile takeover by Harry Weinberg in February 1962, and the strike that ended the company's control of the majority of routes in Manhattan and the Bronx.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Thanks, once again, for "hopping aboard"! Very Happy

If the "uppah clahss swells" on Fifth Avenue were so vehemently opposed to STREETCARS, could you IMAGINE the cries of outrage and the uproar had someone proposed (or, even worse, BUILT) an ELEVATED rapid transit line on 5th?? Shocked

"Katy, bar the door!" Shocked

It would seem that these well-heeled folks were the ancestors of today's NIMBYS!

Ironically, the BRT/BMT operated a Fifth Avenue elevated line in Brooklyn!

I have long been very enamored with bus operations along Fifth Avenue; that there is only ONE book out there on the Company and its buses only further re-enforces my stance on just how LONG overdue an even more detailed work on the Company is, one that also goes into solid detail on the New Look era........

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For comparison only.......

Scroll down this page to the photo at the bottom; check out the highly unusual enclosed rear stairway on a Chicago Motor Coach Company YELLOW, apart from the main body.

I had never seen a photo like this previously; MOST unusual!

Needless to say, I have never seen one of FACCO.'s buses with such a stairway.....

"NYO"

https://chicagology.com/transportation/stagetobuses/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

347 Broome St., 447 E. 27th St., 667 Broadway, 264 Elizabeth St.........

STEPHENSON built omnibuses and streetcars in Manhattan for many years; many of the oldest wooden "El" cars were also Stephenson products, lasting many decades in service.

Be sure to note the eye-catching "stretch" omnibus ("PRIDE OF THE NATION") among the other handsome and beautiful 1800's "Made In Noo Yawk" transit vehicles on this excellent page...... Wink

https://blog.mcny.org/2013/12/10/john-stephenson-company-streetcars/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From:
"WHEELS ACROSS AMERICA" (Clarence P. Hornung, 1959):

An 1880's article in "HARPER'S WEEKLY" reported that there was a tremendous bid for the laying of streetcar tracks along New York's most fashionable thoroughfare, Fifth Avenue.

The article reported that "........thankfully, for the residents and property owners, the obnoxious streetcars were banned in favor of the Fifth Avenue Transportation Company, Ltd. ......"

".....the company proposes to operate an omnibus line over Fifth Avenue from the Bleeker St. station of the elevated, on South Fifth Avenue to Eighty-second Street......."

".......the new fleet of buses was to number fifty at the start, to run at block-and-a-half intervals......."

"NYO"

*It is also interesting to note that, as seen in a period engraving, that interior car card advertisements were in use early on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 1216
Location: Queens, NY

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
347 Broome St., 447 E. 27th St., 667 Broadway, 264 Elizabeth St.........

STEPHENSON built omnibuses and streetcars in Manhattan for many years; many of the oldest wooden "El" cars were also Stephenson products, lasting many decades in service.

Be sure to note the eye-catching "stretch" omnibus ("PRIDE OF THE NATION") among the other handsome and beautiful 1800's "Made In Noo Yawk" transit vehicles on this excellent page...... Wink

https://blog.mcny.org/2013/12/10/john-stephenson-company-streetcars/


Wow...that's an amazing vehicle...made the contemporary Concord Coaches used by most of the stage coach lines look like 'jitney's' in comparison... Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

Agreed! Wink

That magnificent "elongated omnibus De Luxe" could have served well as a VERY early (obviously, this would be the FIRST!) experiment with ARTICULATION!! Shocked Shocked

Seriously speaking, though, I truly believe that the history of horse-drawn buses is just as ignored among bus fans as horse cars are with traction buffs!

After all, it was these humble horse-drawn vehicles that later led to the development of the motor bus, as we know it today.

So, the next time you see the latest hi-tech modern city bus going about its duties on Fifth Avenue (or on any other street!), just give a quick thought to just how these vehicles came about in the FIRST place...... Wink


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All:

Just think of the tremendous savings that were brought about when the Fifth Avenue omnibuses were replaced with motor buses.

First and foremost, there was, of course, no longer a manure-disposal problem (hey, s**t happens, fellows!)

Secondly, think of the expenses of grooming the horses daily, not to mention the feeding and watering of the animals.

Many large streetcar (and bus) operators of that era used modern (AND expensive!) steam-powered automatic grooming machines (manufactured by the Clark Patent Grooming Machine Company)

Then, too, the expenses going towards veterinarians fees.

There was also the catastrophic "Great Epizootic" of 1872, which sadly killed thousands of horses in the United States; in New York alone, over 1000 horses were too ill too work.

In Philadelphia, the horses were dying at a rate of 175-200 a week.

Not surprisingly, most horse car and omnibus operations in the United States either stopped running their vehicles altogether, or offered services on a very limited basis.....

"NYO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Great Epizootic"(scroll down page for the 1872 outbreak)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_influenza

*It is also important to remember that fire engines were also horse-drawn at the time, and would be for several more decades before the advent of motorization......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would have been most interesting, to say the least, had the FACCo., early on, operated ELECTRIC buses such as these, which once operated in London......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Electrobus_Company
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling down Fifth Avenue......

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hcc/2017/05/Rolling-Down-Fifth-Avenue/3750806

(courtesy: Hemmings)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See also:

https://www.revolvy.com/page/Fifth-Avenue-Coach-Company
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6788
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few thioughts........

When we, today (IF we ever do) think about the horse drawn buses on 5th Avenue, I am sure that the pictures we conjur up in our minds is one of nostalgia and charm; the omnibuses carrying genteel ladies and top-hatted gentleman, the drivers in charge of their noble seeds.

True, the buses WERE handsome vehicles carrying stylish passengers, and yes, the horses were quite handsome in appearance, making for a splendid sights as they clip-clopped down the Avenue, BUT, let's now focus on the realities.

These horses WORKED.....and I mean WORKED, hauling those heavy buses every day, in EVERY kind of weather, snow and sun, winter and summer.

Then, too, horses, not being "house trained" (neither then nor now) deposited huge amounts of manure on the "tony" thoroughfare (and, for that matter, every other street in those days)

Too, all that water they drank HAD to come out eventually....onto the streets.

Horse-drawn street railways had sprinklers cars to keep the dust down on the streets (this also lasted well into the electric era), but still, street cleaners STILL had to keep their brooms in action.

True, from the days of the earliest De Dion and DAIMLER buses and through to modern times, the noisome problem of horse waste on 5th was eliminated (at least, bus-wise)

Then, too, the drivers of these horse-drawn buses were exposed to the elements, year-round (this even held true in the early motor bus era, with windshields not appearing until about 1915, with the drivers now thankfully sitting inside the bus itself)

Of course, there were the gas and diesel fumes emitted by the buses, that, seemingly, disappeared into thin air and vanished, with no harm done, decade upon decade.

Of course, nowadays, we know better.

Just my 2 1/2 cents worth.....

"NYO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 52
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 521
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last horse-drawn streetcars were taken out of service in 1917 - two years before New York Railways Company declared bankruptcy, leading to a series of service cutbacks and several "emergency" bus routes started up under Department of Plant and Structures aegis. One such route that still runs is known today as M22.

As for FACCo, WWI forced them into the manufacturing business, as De Dion and Daimler, after all, were "foreign owned." (This factor also contributed to the founding of Radio Corporation of America, RCA, in 1919.) Many of the buses FACCo produced, besides running on their own routes, also made it to other cities, in the years before Omnibus Corp. got its claws into FACCo and, soon after, was purchasing buses made by Yellow Coach.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BusTalk Forum Index -> New York City Buses All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group