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Historical Buses of NYC: Gen 2 Fishbowls I
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 308
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, as far as batwing signs over the years here on MaBSTOA routes . . . as I've seen no evidence in photos in the Galleries, anyone know if any side roll signs were printed after the 1969 route switcheroo ending the 2 - Fifth-Madison-Lenox and inaugurating the 101A - Third-Lexington-Lenox, namely this layout for the new line (which, in their type sizes and weights, would have been laid out along the lines of such batwing side signs for 2A, 100, 103, 106 and 107 routes):


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MaBSTOA 15



Age: 64
Joined: 27 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: MaBSTOA New Looks in Washington Square Reply with quote

I found these photos showing the FACCo model A in company of MaBSTOA's first group of New Looks. What gives them away is the lack of paint on the lower panel and lack of rubber fenders around the tires.

This has to be shortly before 5th Avenue was made one way south bound and the buses were prohibited from entering Washington Square. January 1964??

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X-Astorian




Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 107
Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: MaBSTOA New Looks in Washington Square Reply with quote

MaBSTOA 15 wrote:
I found these photos showing the FACCo model A in company of MaBSTOA's first group of New Looks. What gives them away is the lack of paint on the lower panel and lack of rubber fenders around the tires.

This has to be shortly before 5th Avenue was made one way south bound and the buses were prohibited from entering Washington Square. January 1964??

Photos borrowed solely for educational purpose.


Good finds. Washington Square Park was closed to traffic effective November 10, 1963. Because the trees are full and people are wearing short sleeve shirts, the photos must be the summer of 1962 or 1963. One-way traffic on Fifth Avenue began on January 14, 1966.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 308
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: MaBSTOA New Looks in Washington Square Reply with quote

X-Astorian wrote:
MaBSTOA 15 wrote:
I found these photos showing the FACCo model A in company of MaBSTOA's first group of New Looks. What gives them away is the lack of paint on the lower panel and lack of rubber fenders around the tires.

This has to be shortly before 5th Avenue was made one way south bound and the buses were prohibited from entering Washington Square. January 1964??

Photos borrowed solely for educational purpose.


Good finds. Washington Square Park was closed to traffic effective November 10, 1963. Because the trees are full and people are wearing short sleeve shirts, the photos must be the summer of 1962 or 1963. One-way traffic on Fifth Avenue began on January 14, 1966.

It would have been around July of 1963. These were the TDH-5303's, of which a few (the last 71, 3485-3555) were assigned to 132nd Street initially (other depots to which those first buses ordered specifically for MaBSTOA were assigned were Coliseum in the Bronx, as well as Manhattan's Amsterdam, 100th Street and 146th Street garages). The effective date Washington Square was closed to bus traffic was actually Sept. 2, 1963. Nov. 10 was when the 5 - Fifth Avenue/Riverside Drive line's southern terminus was shifted to Houston Street and West Broadway.

One key is the marker lights; the other the tail lights below the (then) 3-piece rear window setup. As well, an ad for Mary, Mary - the movie version of which came out in '63.
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Waynejay



Age: 53
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 194
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q65A wrote:
My fellow "partner in crime" Mr. Linsky has posted an excellent set of photos that illustrate the key tailgate-related styling differences between the First and Second Generations of GM New Looks:
http://bustalk.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1081

In the top photo of the rear end of the NYCT TDH-5301, one clearly can see the individual fiberglass "nacelles" that surround each tailgate lamp.
This tailgate arrangement is among the major spotting features that distinguish the First Generation Fishbowls from their younger siblings.

In the lower photo of the rear end of NYCT 3758, you can see how the styling of the stop/turn/tail lamps has been "cleaned up" by removal of the nacelles that formerly had surrounded each fixture.
The rear window of NYCT 3758 also illustrates the later 4-piece design that had been adopted on most Fishbowls to reduce the costs of glass replacement.


I think NYCTA/MABSTOA started using the 4-piece rear windoiw combo with the third order of TDH-5303s, OA's 6401-6900. I think all of the older TA/OA 5303s were delivered with the 3-piece rear window arrangement, but in later years nearly all were replaced with the 4-piece setup. I recall in the late 70s a few of the 5201-5525 group still had the 3-piece setup. A few that come to mind are... 5270, 5328, 5354, 5382, 5391, 5451 and 5525. I'm sure there were others.
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Waynejay



Age: 53
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 194
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA 15 wrote:
An interesting New Look, #3000 of the NYPD


Awesome. I saw this bus a few times. Originally, it was white with black stripe which were NYTPD colors at the time. While it looked like a TA/OA T6H-5310A... It was actually a T8H-5307A, but with just one door.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 308
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waynejay wrote:
I think NYCTA/MABSTOA started using the 4-piece rear windoiw combo with the third order of TDH-5303s, OA's 6401-6900. I think all of the older TA/OA 5303s were delivered with the 3-piece rear window arrangement, but in later years nearly all were replaced with the 4-piece setup. I recall in the late 70s a few of the 5201-5525 group still had the 3-piece setup. A few that come to mind are... 5270, 5328, 5354, 5382, 5391, 5451 and 5525. I'm sure there were others.

Only MaBSTOA with the 6401-6900 set (contract MB-16-OA). NYCTA in that same time period instituted 4-piece rear windows with the second order of Flxible F2D6V-401-1's (TA 5601-5790, contract MB-16). If you've seen pics of the first set (within 5001-5165), any bus with 4-piece was converted from 3-piece (the center vertical line of a lighter grey than the rest of the frame holding the panels together).

Of the MB-15-OA order (5201-5525) that retained the 3-piece, all but 5451 were for years stationed at 54th Street depot*, and one pic in the 54th Street brochure showed a 3-piece from the back view of the bus. 5451, as of December 1965, was at 146th Street, then in the 1970-74 period at 100th Street. As for 5525, as of February 1970 it was at 146th Street, then in 1973 and '74 at Hudson depot. It would be interesting to see which bus numbers in that order were converted to 4-piece, to see which of the depots made such conversion.
* 12/65: 5246-5397; 2/70: 5246-5352 (5353-5452 to 100th Street); 1/73: 5326-5400 (5246-5325 to Hudson); 1/74: 5331-5400 (5326-5330 to Kingsbridge)
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 51
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 308
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: Historical Buses of NYC: Gen 2 Fishbowls I Reply with quote

Q65A wrote:
MaBSTOA 3301-3555 were acquired in June 1963 (contract MB-14-OA), and were assigned to West Farms and Kingsbridge Depots, where they helped to replace aging ex-ST Mack C-45DTs and C-47DTs and veteran ex-ST GM TD-4506s and 4507s.

Based on the type of front roll signs initially on these buses (a layout not replicated on roll signs for subsequent orders, with the route number at left in big type, and two lines of small type at right, route designation on the first line and destination on the second; and which signs, after these first MaBSTOA buses "got around" to other garages in Manhattan and the Bronx, got installed onto some buses within the 6401-6900 [contract MB-16-OA] and 8301-8780 [contract MB-17-OA] groups), they were also, at the onset, assigned to the Amsterdam and 132nd Street depots in Manhattan, to replace whatever "aging" rolling stock there was at those places (Amsterdam in particular, no doubt, would have had as dilapidated a fleet on hand as did KB and WF). 1963 photos "of the time" showed this first group of second-generation Fishbowls plying 42nd Street (no doubt on M104, as M106 by then was out of 54th Street depot) and upper Manhattan (a few M100 buses) and around Washington Square (home to the 2, 3 and 5 routes at the point buses were banned from the park effective Sept. 2, 1963).

That West Farms was an initial home to those first second-generation MaBSTOA Fishbowls is evidenced by a sign for Bx42 within the Gallery, taken in 1970, on the front of 1965 bus #6541. Those types of signs were also recycled for #6830 (up to the late 1960's), 8456, 8466, 8674 and 8683 (that we know of).
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