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Were TDH/TDM Old Look suburbans "regional" buses?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CROWN COACH COMPANY (Joplin, Missouri) , was an important long-distance bus company which operated a main route south from Kansas City.

The company (affiliated with GREYHOUND, as was obvious from the "Running Dogs" carried on the buses) also operated commuter service in the growing suburban areas south of Kansas City.

They purchased two "semi-suburban" TDH-4509's in 1953.....

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
A Canadian property that also operated "semi-suburban" Old Looks was EASTERN GREYHOUND LINES; in fact, the company operated all of the Old Look transit buses in the Windsor and London areas.

They purchased a TD-4506 in 1946, and added ten TDM-4515's to the fleet in 1957.

Eventually, all of these routes were sold to a local outfit between 1963 and 1964......

"NYO"

Interesting...didn't know they had that local service back then.
But wasn't it Eastern CANADIAN Greyhound Lines (ECG) ?

ECG was interesting in that it was completely separated from the rest of Greyhound Lines of Canada until sometime in the '70's, or '80's, when GLC finally got its own route into Toronto from Sudbury. (They had previously pooled with TTC-owned Gray Coach Lines on that route...)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
A Canadian property that also operated "semi-suburban" Old Looks was EASTERN GREYHOUND LINES; in fact, the company operated all of the Old Look transit buses in the Windsor and London areas.

They purchased a TD-4506 in 1946, and added ten TDM-4515's to the fleet in 1957.

Eventually, all of these routes were sold to a local outfit between 1963 and 1964......

"NYO"

Interesting...didn't know they had that local service back then.
But wasn't it Eastern CANADIAN Greyhound Lines (ECG) ?

ECG was interesting in that it was completely separated from the rest of Greyhound Lines of Canada until sometime in the '70's, or '80's, when GLC finally got its own route into Toronto from Sudbury. (They had previously pooled with TTC-owned Gray Coach Lines on that route...)


traildriver:

Thanks for the heads-up....you are correct (You see what happens when you try to type with only 3 hours of sleep under your belt?)
Rolling Eyes

Another GREYHOUND Old Look "semi suburban" pictures in this book is a 1953 TDH-4509 of CROWN COACH (Joplin, Missouri

Judging by the large "Running Dog" on the side of the bus, it does not take too much detective work to guess which famous company was involved..... Wink

Of course, most prominent of GREYHOUND's suburban operations was the lines that once radiated out of 'Frisco, serving numerous Bay area-communities.......

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually regional bus carrier's that had a 'greyhound' logo on their buses had a certain percentage of Greyhound Corporation ownership....such as Kerrville, New Mexico Transportation, SKGL, and several others thru the years....
I'm not sure about Crown Coach, however. Crown's routes were eventually absorbed by Jefferson Lines, which also pooled with them on the Minneapolis-Des Moines-Kansas City-Joplin-Fort Smith-Texarkana route which also at times pooled further to Shreveport or New Orleans with CTS.

Back in the days when Greyhound pooled with many regional carrier's throughout the country, Greyhound demanded that the regional provide their pro-rated mileage share of equipment, that was to Greyhound's specifications, including a predominate blue and silver or white paint scheme, to match their's. Several carrier's had their own 'home' paint scheme, but then the buses in the GL pool had to be according to GL specs...even down to type of equipment.

One example that you may remember seeing in The Port, was the Edwards Motor Transit Company ("Lakes-To-Sea System"). Their buses that ran their east-west New York-Williamsport-Dubois-Cleveland route were mainly red and white. But on their share of the Washington-Harrisburg-Sunbury-Elmira-Buffalo pool with Greyhound, their buses were blue and white.
Continental Trailways bought Edwards in 1969, and suddenly Greyhound driver's got to drive Eagle's....but that's another story.... Wink
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

Another great post! Very Happy

Thanks! Wink

Indeed I do recall EDWARDS; I also recall reading in a 1940 "GUIDE TO NEW JERSEY" in our local library years ago, that EDWARDS also once called at Journal Square (as did MARTZ)

Again, this puts into the spotlight the often overlooked aspect of GREYHOUND's diverse history; the sector in which it was involved in more "humble" bus operations, light-years removed from the glitzy realm of the noble SCENICRUISER!

Getting back to the Old Looks, I am now thinking of the long-ago days when Old Look suburbans and "semi suburbans" were simply a fiber in the rich fabric that made up the operating world of motor coaches.....man, I would give anything to return to those days! Wink

"NYO"
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Q65A



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The commuter bus lines west of the Hudson really had to use the best equipment they could get, even many years ago. H&M, predecessor to today's PATH, operated true rapid transit into Manhattan, but their routes served Newark, Hoboken and Jersey City. With the sole exception of PRR, NJ commuter railroads never offered one-seat service into Manhattan. That said, commuter bus lines had to pick up the slack in some pretty densely populated suburban NJ counties. This region really became a "test lab" for what became known as suburbans. GM really was at the forefront with their Old Looks.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q65A wrote:
The commuter bus lines west of the Hudson really had to use the best equipment they could get, even many years ago. H&M, predecessor to today's PATH, operated true rapid transit into Manhattan, but their routes served Newark, Hoboken and Jersey City. With the sole exception of PRR, NJ commuter railroads never offered one-seat service into Manhattan. That said, commuter bus lines had to pick up the slack in some pretty densely populated suburban NJ counties. This region really became a "test lab" for what became known as suburbans. GM really was at the forefront with their Old Looks.


Q65A:

An excellent post; agree 100%.

When the DL&W was electrifying its suburban Morris & Essex lines out of Hoboken, utilizing new MU equipment (trailer cars were rebuilt from existing steam-hauled coaches) DE CAMP stepped up to the plate to purchase new buses and to "beef up" its then-fledgling service to Manhattan, via the Holland Tunnel.

When the ERIE took delivery of its first STILLWELL coaches about 1915, they were equipped with end portholes for a motorman, and sufficient underbody clearances to allow for the instillation of extra electrical gear.

At that time, the ERIE was contemplating electrification of its suburban lines out of the Pavonia Avenue terminal, Jersey City.

Awhile back, I had also seen plans from the 1920's which called for not only electrifying all NJ commuters lines, but also, building a new set of Hudson River tunnels that would have funneled all of the newly electrified Jersey commuter runs into a new and massive underground terminal in lower Manhattan, much along the lines of the H&M's Hudson Terminal.

The CNJ, too, had also contemplated the electrification of its commuter lines, and the last commuter cars it purchased were a number of arch roof coaches, that were virtually identical to the new MU's that parent READING was purchasing for its Philly area suburban operations.

Like the early ERIE Stillwells, these new CNJ cars would have been easy to convert to MU electric operation.

Of course, like the ERIE, no electrification on the CNJ ever took place.

Actually, the PRR, until 1967, operated TWO "one seat rides" into Manhattan.

Until April 1967, it operated (along with PATH) the "joint service" which operated from Newark to Hudson Terminal, via Journal Square.

PRR-owned cars (MP-38's until 1958/Class "K" cars from 1958 onwards) used on this line were all equipped with cab signals, and motorman on this line had to pass a PRR rulebook test.

PRR-owned cars all wore Pennsy keystones.

In 1967, PATH took over complete control of the line; PRR position light signals were replaced with new color signals, and new "PA" cars replaced the "K" cars, which, in turn, were relegated to other PATH routes.

Getting back to buses, remember, too, the "parlor" equipment used by many NJ carriers back in the 60's, that were used on routes into the PABT (PS, DE CAMP, and INTER-CITY come to mind here)

GM "Buffalos" also became common sights at the PABT, starting in the late 60's.

Still more rail commuters switched to buses when the NYS&W abandoned all commuter service in mid-1966 (until then, NYS&W commuters transferred at Susquehanna Transfer in Weehawken, where they boarded buses for the short hop into the PABT)

As I had mentioned earlier, the last company that I can recall using Old Look suburbans into the PABT was SOMERSET; this would have been very early in the 1980's........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I had previously mentioned NJ commuter railroads and suburban bus services of years back, here are two old photos that might be of interest.......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3403

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3406

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this melancholy view from 1978, we see ex-PSNJ "semi-suburban" L314 and fellow workhorses recalling the good old days as they contemplate their dim future........to think that, back in our younger days, now-classic buses such as these handsome vehicles were common, everyday sights......

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3468

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the new NJDOT Flex New Looks began to arrive in huge numbers starting about 1976, it certainly spelled for not only the vast majority of remaining Old Looks, but also, a good number of first-generation Fishbowls as well.

The very last of ANY type of Old Look in my area operated in 1986, on the old NHBL's #1 LOCAL out of Journal Square.

I still miss those wonderful old buses today......cannot believe it is now 30 years since I last rode on one......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If memory serves me correctly, what remained of the once-proud PS Old Look fleet bit the dust during 1976; AFAIK, I cannot recall seeing any in service past that date, with the exception of a lone 4509 (renumbered 30X), running on the now-defunct Washington St. line in Hoboken.

PSNJ's suburban Old Looks were, IMHO, among the most handsome on the roads, back then.......

"NYO"
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