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It's all in the details! But who noticed?

 
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frankie



Age: 77
Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 745
Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: It's all in the details! But who noticed? Reply with quote

I thought I'd start a new topic as I couldn't find a previous one that this would fit into. I suppose what is posted here are minute but prevalent details that no one would probably have noticed until it's pointed out. I'm sure it serves little or no purpose for the casual bus enthusiast. About the only worthy purpose would be for a bus modeler that's a stickler in detail that as of now would have one more super detail to deal with to make that model that more realistic.

This subject for this subject has to do with the glass covering of the destination sign for old look GM. To the casual looker, I wonder how many have actually noticed that the length of the glass is not flat but actually creased in the middle. No, I was not seeking unusual feature on buses, but rather found this by accident while looking through Bill Luke / Linda Metler's OLD LOOK BUSES soft cover book. All photos below are credited to the book.

At first I thought this unique feature were only limited to the small size buses as the ones I've found photos of are obvious thanks to the angle of the sun's reflection. However, I've come to the conclusion that most GM old looks had these regardless of size. There is a definitely shape of the destination opening that peaks at the top allowing the glass to be creased to conform to the shape. Earlier Yellow coaches had vertical dividers in the center, but I think they were secured above and below the glass and not an integral part of the glass itself - thus the glass was still one piece. Later GM models did have the optional glass divider, but no sure if the glass consisted of two pieces or if the divider actually rested on the crease.

Okay, these are my observations. Yours may be different. We're open for discussion. Let me know what you think.

Frankie

And now the photos:

Bus 106 is a perfect example of the center crease thanks to the sun's reflection on both the windshield and the destination window.



Bus 59 is another example - again the reflection angle highlights it.



From the driver's side, this is bus 426.



Twin City Transit 593 shows the different angles of the glass area. That may be a divider covering the crease - not sure - but looking at this from the front would not be obvious at all.



The above four photos all showed small buses. Now we'll show some of the larger size buses including this TDH-4512. Note the peak that was mentioned in the above text. The destination sign is a sticker and not part of the actual curtain. You can see how the double angle gives the sticker a curved look, but would look straight if an actual curtain behind the glass.



Another reflection shot shows the angled glass area. The passenger side on this TDH-5105 reflects whereas the driver's side doesn't allowing the sign to be more readable.



Another TDH-5105, but not as obvious without reflection. However you can notice the peaks at the center allowing the angles to be more evident.

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JimmiB



Age: 81
Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 516
Location: Lebanon, PA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never really noticed that till you pointed it out. I just went through some of my photo files and it's obvious in several shots. Here's one that Mr. L posted some time ago that really shows the crease.
Sorry Mr. L, I think its a sad photo also. Crying or Very sad



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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmiB wrote:
I never really noticed that till you pointed it out. I just went through some of my photo files and it's obvious in several shots. Here's one that Mr. L posted some time ago that really shows the crease.
Sorry Mr. L, I think its a sad photo also. Crying or Very sad



JimmiB,

Yes, it's a sad photo to me personally because I drove GBL 310 and all of its nine siblings so many times.

But, I also look at the picture with a positive attitude that, in a sense, the little fellow may still be alive in spite of its deteriorated condition and that makes me feel good.

I've seen ex GBL's in far worse shape such the 100 series TDH 4512 shown below after years of toil for the Kent State University Campus Bus Service in Ohio.

What are you going to do? - that's life.

BTW; as long as we're on Frankie's 'crease' thread, take note of the glass on the GBL Kent State job which proves that they were one piece and I could never understand why some Old Looks had the vertical molding at the center of the sign unless there was an option for a two piece installation.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

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roymanning2000



Age: 75
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this is a new one on me. I never noticed that crease and I've seen a lot of old looks. I need to be more observant.

I do remember that some of the earlier old looks did have a vertical metal strip in the middle of the sign opening but that seemed to be attached to the bus itself not the glass.

Interesting post. That's for pointing it out. Nice photos, too.

Roy
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Mr. Linsky
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmiB, frankie;

When Yellow Coach (GM) introduced the 'Old Look' bus model in 1940, the center destination glass divider appeared in all production and, to my knowledge, continued through the war years and I believe that those glasses were two piece probably because glass making technology at the time prohibited shaping the lens to match the peak.

However, and apparently, that problem was solved with the introduction of the post war models which did come through with single glasses bent to meet the contour of the peak.

The reason that some post war Old Looks wound up with the divider could have been because stresses broke the glasses just as the rear glasses of the first New Looks cracked and the two piece fix was the logical way to go.

Comments are certainly welcome on this one.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'
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JimmiB



Age: 81
Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 516
Location: Lebanon, PA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW Mr. "L", I still find it interesting that we both drove several of the same buses in different cities.
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Mr. Linsky
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimmiB wrote:
BTW Mr. "L", I still find it interesting that we both drove several of the same buses in different cities.



JimmiB,

And they were great buses too!

I've got a question for you; records and photos show that Green Line (NY) sent one TDH 4509 (numbered 341 and shown in the upper image below) to Reading sometime in the late sixties but no Reading fleet number was assigned to it at sale nor does it appear on their roster.

I do no what eventually happened to it as seen in the center frame but did Reading ever use it in revenue service or did they resell it or use it possibly as a parts car?).

Note in the upper left corner of the center frame that you can still see the remnant of Green Line's flag in script.

Also note that over the side destination sign there appears to be a number 1981 - do you know of any other fleet in the area that ran such numbers?

BTW; we did send four 4509's to Conestoga Transportation Company at about the same time (see lower photo - ex GBL 331).

All images courtesy of RayPa.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'



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JimmiB



Age: 81
Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 516
Location: Lebanon, PA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is sort of a mystery. I know that Reading never used it. Since it has a different number in the scrap yard photo I would assume that it was sold to another company. I can't think of anyone in the area that used a high number like that. If I can locate any information I'll let you know. Looks as if that is an exact fare sticker under the first window so it probably did make it into regular service somewhere.
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JimmiB



Age: 81
Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 516
Location: Lebanon, PA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't figured out where the ex-Green Lines bus came from, but the photo was taken at Hoffman's Auto and Bus Parts. I believe this is in Schuylkill County. If this is the same scrap yard that I was at several years ago there were several acres full of old coaches. The Mack in the photo is in the livery of Lehigh Valley Transit of Allentown. From other photos that I've seen of the same place it appears that many LVT buses ended up there.
It seems possible that the Green Lines bus may have been bought by East Penn Transportation in Pottsville. They ran used old looks and had purchased some buses from Reading just before BARTA took over.
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Mr. Linsky
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a classic close-up photo of a two piece destination sign glass showing the rubber gasket running under the vertical stabilizer up the center.

The bus, a 1940 32 passenger Yellow Coach Model TD 3201 and one of seven likenesses numbered 114 to 120 operating for the Charleston Transit Company of Charleston, West Virginia, had the distinction, along with its siblings, of being one of the very first orders of 'streamlined' (or Old Look) buses ever delivered.

BTW; the small 'T' decal in the lower right corner of the right windshield was a fuel rationing sticker issue by the government Office of Price Administration (OPA) during the war to indicate the amount of product allowed for the particular vehicle in a certain time frame - the 'T' in this case meant 'Transit Exemption'.

Photo courtesy of Charleston Archives.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

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frankie



Age: 77
Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 745
Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We now go on to another subject of details that we probably never noticed. This time we look at a very minute detail that's only found on the original Scenicruisers with the original paint scheme.

I purposely "question marked" the first two photos to see if anyone is astute enough to identify what the blue lines are pointing to. Just about every photo of the early Scenicruisers have them, unfortunately they appear like undiscernible dots, but you'll be surprised when you see them up close.





One fact we must consider when GM built the Scenicruiser aka PD-4501 is that the design was exclusive for Greyhound and "copyrighted" by Greyhound. Tom McNally & Fred Rayman's excellent book "Greyhound Scenicruiser" further elaborates: One of the more peculiar details of the coach exterior was a small red "circle R" decal located on each side above the tear drop toward the front of the upper deck. Apparently, this was Greyhound's method of displaying their registered trademark for the unique dual-leval coach design."

The first photo below is a publicity shot showing the much touted lower level 6-foot picture window (sans the glass). Look closely above the teardrop window and you can see the red registration mark. A better example is found in the bottom photo.

Frankie

Above photos courtesy of Tom McNally & Fred Rayman for educational purposes. The first photo below courtesy of Robert Gabrick. The bottom photo courtesy of Tom's Garage via Flicker



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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would seem as though GM was not the only manufacturer that went with a peak over the windshield as seen on fleet #514 - a late forties 27 passenger Ford Model 'Metropolitan' operating for the New Haven and Shore Line Railway Company of New Haven, Connecticut.

Funny how the reflection picks up the angle so perfectly and has never really been noticed before.

# 514 is seen standing in front of the New London Bus Terminal awaiting its next run to the suburb of Griswold.

Photo courtesy of '4509bus' and is available at eBay as item # 370947064230.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

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frankie



Age: 77
Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 745
Location: St. Peters, Mo.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
It would seem as though GM was not the only manufacturer that went with a peak over the windshield as seen on fleet #514 - a late forties 27 passenger Ford Model 'Metropolitan' operating for the New Haven and Shore Line Railway Company of New Haven, Connecticut.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York


Interesting! I would assume that this also carried over to the Marmon-Herringtons.

Frankie
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Mr. Linsky
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankie wrote:
Mr. Linsky wrote:
It would seem as though GM was not the only manufacturer that went with a peak over the windshield as seen on fleet #514 - a late forties 27 passenger Ford Model 'Metropolitan' operating for the New Haven and Shore Line Railway Company of New Haven, Connecticut.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York


Interesting! I would assume that this also carried over to the Marmon-Herringtons.

Frankie


Yes.

Mr. 'L'
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