BusTalk

[HwyHaulier]

MR 'L' -

Many Thanks for N C L Properties list. I keep overlooking the work; it is the splendid Bill Vandervoort efforts. As part, as early as its
Annual Report, ca. 1952, N C L signaled it losing interest in its perceived future of assets in city transit operations. So, its actions in
1959, hardly a surprise it acquired highway cargo carrier, LASME. The Company should have done more with the strategy. It surely
would have been well received by established Western States Motor Carriers...

Meanwhile, I can't get everywhere in my persona as Visiting Professor, Land Economics! Our esteemed Bill Vandervoort needs much
counsel to avoid the Style use of "BUSTITUTION!". Its use implies acceptance of the ca. 1948 DoJ Anti Trust actions against G M C,
N C L, Et. Al. If anything, the Case was very bad law, and based on ignorance of the actual corporate structures dragged into the
actions. The problem? DoJ apparently with too much public money buried in preparation of the Case!

Later, it was sensationalized in the movie length cartoon, Roger Rabbit! An "unintended consequence"? We have newbies and
dilettantes buying it as an article of faith! Ain't so! Best uses of Rabbit? See French Cooking for possibilities with Lapin! <G>

.........................Vern......................

[andrethebusman]

This bus was a very poorly thought out deal, but given we are talking 1917, maybe not so. The body is by St Louis Car, one of 50 (101-150). The engine compartment/cab is detachable from the body, and has a Knight/Moline engine. The idea was that if the motor broke down, you just attached another motor and you are OK to go while the bad motor is repaired. However,in practical terms, it was usually just easier to fix the darn thing.

In any event, by 1919 (2 years old) these things were falling apart. 23 were rebuilt by CMC as numbers 153-175 (151 and 152 were a couple of gas-electric experimentals) and lasted until about 1924 when all were junked as the new Z's were delivered. The photo is at CMB's only garage, at that time, at Broadway and Rosemont.

One correction: Chicago Stage Co never operated. Depot Motor Bus was a very minor operation downtown, running four routes between State St and the train stations. Chicago Motor Bus wasn't all that big, either, basically just Sheridan Road and a branch to Wilson and Ravenswood. The real expansion came after CMB became Chicago Motor Coach.

[fishbowl]

I've known about cats with six toes and people with extra fingers (polydactyly)...

but until now I've never run across a 4007 with an extra pair of corner marker lights (protruding from its "forehead")...



Ah, the mysteries of bus genetics!


Photo thanks to Bruce K.'s eBay auction #350528305643.
Photo used for educational purposes only.

[Mr. Linsky]

fishbowl,

It wasn't until yesterday in my presentation of a Connecticut Company TG 3606 (photo attached) in another thread on this site that I first saw the odd markers that show up in your GM ad from eBay.

I made comment of them in my report and received an explanation thanks to Tripstop80 of GMOldLook as follows;


"The Connecticut buses do not have Michigan markers. The two markers were blue and were on every Connecticut non over the road bus through at least the early fifties. Probably a state law."


BTW; it was not uncommon for GM to show the wrong bus model in their ads and your blurb touting the 4007 from 1944 and 1945 was no exception.

While the bus shown was a forty passenger, it was built before the war as evidenced by both the divided destination sign glass and the Yellow Coach wings and badge under the windshield.

I've always chalked up these errors to some inexperienced clerk in GM's sales department that sent the wrong photo to the printer!

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[fishbowl]

Mr. L.,
As always, thanks for your thorough and helpful (enjoyable, too) information!

[Mr. Linsky]

fishbowl,

Thank you!

Apparently Tripstop80 was correct in his explanation concerning the special lights over the destination signs on all Connecticut transit buses of yore as can be clearly seen below on a 1934 ACF Model H-12-S operating for the North East Transportation Company of Waterbury, Connecticut.

The fact that they were blue is a bit strange (in New York State, blue lights were (and probably still are) usually reserved for volunteer fire fighter's vehicles and you would think that that would have been universal).

Photo thanks to Bruce K. of eBay.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[Mr. Linsky]

In the attached very beautiful photo taken in the summer of 1980, we see a custom rebuilt 1955 GM Coach Model TDH 4512 operating for the Omaha Nebraska Fire Department and set up as a Tri-Mutual Aid Communications Center.

The bus was originally one of seventeen numbered between 1601 and 1617 delivered to the Omaha and Council Bluffs (Iowa) Street Railway Company of Omaha and is seen awaiting its next assignment at Fire Headquarters in downtown Omaha.

It appears as though this coach is equipped with everything but a kitchen sink although it may have one of those as well and it wouldn't surprise me if the unit is still on the job today!

The Omaha and Council Bluffs Street Railway was the only known transit company to service two adjoining city's but both in different states and carried license plates from each of those states on every bus.

Photo courtesy of eBay.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

[frankie]

[HwyHaulier]

Frankie - MR 'L' - All -

IMHO, MR 'L' relied on a hair splitting precedent here. Language, "...the only known transit company to service...". Implied? Service by
a "private sector" operator. Also, operations by same carrier of purely "City" runs in two States.

Compare. St. Louis BI-STATE not a private sector entity. Something of a discussion may be made about PUBLIC SERVICE OF N J, with
services into NY and PA, too. In the example, however, it engaged in "closed door" schedules in and out of the points.

On "freight side" reading of the ICC Authority documents, many of us knew of the Omaha - Council Bluffs passenger (bus) operation.
There were also examples of large charter bus lines, some of which had at least one, printed and filed schedule for a daily "franchise
run" so as to protect its Regular Route Authority.

.........................Vern......................

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured in June of 1968 at what might be its garage facility in downtown Manchester, New Hampshire is fleet # 310 - a 1945 GM Coach Model TD 4007 and one of an unknown number purchased used and operating for the Manchester Transit Company (predecessor to the Manchester Transit Authority formed in 1973).

The oddity here would be the rare (for the time) push open rear doors with an unusual second set of glasses in their lower portions.

This bus, when photographed, had long since seen regular service (and a decent repaint) and was probably used only for school contracts and rush hour shuttle duties.

The last of GM's one time popular 40 passenger capacity transit coaches which were the TDH 4010's saw the end of production in February of 1950.

Photo courtesy of Bruce K. of eBay.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

[Mr. Linsky]

In a shot taken in March of 1955 in the company yards, we see three squared window TDH 4507's and one paired window TDH 4509 operating for the Fort Worth Transit Company of Fort Worth, Texas.

The oddities on all of the buses include double sets of floor vents under the windshields (which seam to have been pretty common among southern tier operators), push open rear doors and a real oddity on 4509 # 911 (second from left) that looks very much like a 'homemade' ThermoMatic air intake over the destination sign.

Photo thanks to tccbeat and is up for bid on eBay as item # 400276059948

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New York

[roymanning2000]

Mr. L,

That same sort of Thermo-matic vent appeared on GM 4509's in Corpus Christi and Houston. Here's a link to a photo of a Corpus Christi bus:

http://archives.cclibraries.com/cdm/singleitem/collection/gpc/id/6413/rec/14

I tried to find a picture of a Houston 4509, but no luck.

Looking at the Corpus Christi photo, it appears that it may be a regular Thermo-matic vent with a shroud attached. Maybe it has something to do with the hot climate.

By the way, the Corpus Christi library local history website has a number of bus photos from the local transit company, Nueces Transportation Co., and Continental Trailways.

http://archives.cclibraries.com/cdm/

Roy

[Mr. Linsky]

Roy,

Great find and when they say that a picture is worth a thousand words, they were probably thinking of the attachments!

These 4509's had just rolled in from the factory as is evidenced by the production stickers and chalk marks on the windows (that's just the way they used to come from Pontiac).

It also tells me that what is a canopy over the ThermoMatic vent was factory and probably developed as you say to help cool intake air.

BUT! there's something else unusual about this particular bus; no ThermoMatic era GM Old Look transit that is so equipped that I have ever seen also carries the six roof dampers found only on those buses not so equipped.

I'd have to get a closer look at Corpus Christi's other 4509's to determine whether they were all ordered that way.

Very interesting!

Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[roymanning2000]

Mr. L,

According to the OMOT TDH 4509 delivery list, Nueces only got the one order of 4509's. There is a 1965 photo of bus 505 from that same order at the Corpus Christi library website. It also has the same shroud over the Thermo-matic.

In addition, Nueces also got a batch of seven TDH 3612's in the same month the 4509's arrived. There are photos of two of them and they both have the same kind of vent.

I kind of like the way it looks.

Roy

[Mr. Linsky]

I had just done a piece the other day on the attachment (page 76 in the 'Vintage New York City' thread) and I realized that the bus, Green Line (NY) #949 with its very odd set of headlamps deserved a spot here as well.

# 949's headlights (known as 'Golden Glows') are a throwback to the era of trolley cars of the 20's and 30's and are not sealed beams - they relied on a bulb that reflected off the mirror like finish of the fixture lining and were available to change by opening the hinged lens rims (you can see the tiny hinges if you look closely).

These lights were almost useless in the city and like having no lighting at all on dark suburban routes and all were replaced by sealed beams in the mid fifties to pass updated PSC inspection standards.

All of what was left of Green Line's 4507's when I arrived for my first summer behind the wheel in 1959 that had originally been built for Surface Transportation System (NY) had already been upgraded but the full time drivers always talked about how bad those old lights were.

Aside from every Yellow and GM squared window Old Look that Surface bought for its New York City and Westchester operations (and there were hundreds), only a handful of other operators opted for the antiquated design and probably only for nostalgic reasons.

Photo from the Bradford Stiles collection.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, New york