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Q65A
Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 1768
Location: Central NJ
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 Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: Name That PBL (Part 2) |
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The GM TDH-5105 was the best selling Old Look coach of all time (3631 units built from 1953-1959), yet curiously enough, NYC bus operators never bought any of them new. (The TDH-4512 sold 3515 units, and was the best selling 35' Old Look; NYC bus operators also shunned it.)
Question: Which 2 PBL's ran used 5105's in passenger service? |
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Q65A
Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 1768
Location: Central NJ
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Name That PBL (Part 2) |
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| Q65A wrote: | The TDH-4512 sold 3515 units, and was the best selling 35' Old Look; NYC bus operators also shunned it.
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Oops!
I stand corrected about the TDH-4512.
One PBL did buy the new TDH-4512's.
Question: Which PBL was it? |
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Hart Bus
Age: 74
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 1150
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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The answer is Green Bus Lines who purchased serial #'s 548 - 562 and gave them fleet #101 - 115.
In reviewing www.omot.org's production lists, there are several purchases by some NY fallen flag companies.
1 - Bee Line Inc (not sure if this is the Nassau County or Westcher Company) who purchased 0027-0035 and 1679 - 1683
2 - Club Transportation (before becoming part of LIberty Lines?) purchased 0855-0859
3 - Fordham Transportation purchasesd 0369 - 0371 and numbered them 154,254&354 for year of purchase. Who took them over?
4 - West Fordham Transportation purchased2742-2744 and numbered them 358,458 & 558 for year of purchase. Was this the same company as Fordham Transportation? Who took them over ?
5 - Scarsdale Transt purchased 0499 & 1225. Who took them over?
6 - Utility Bus Lines purchased 3067 & 3068. They were taken over by Nassau County and the MSBA/LI bus |
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Name That PBL (Part 2) |
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| Q65A wrote: | The GM TDH-5105 was the best selling Old Look coach of all time (3631 units built from 1953-1959), yet curiously enough, NYC bus operators never bought any of them new. (The TDH-4512 sold 3515 units, and was the best selling 35' Old Look; NYC bus operators also shunned it.)
Question: Which 2 PBL's ran used 5105's in passenger service? |
Bob.
First off, bear in mind that the New York area marketplace had already been staturated with 4509's by 1950 so they really weren't looking for any big new orders of 35 footers in 1954 when the 4512's arrived.
They may also have shunned the 4512's because they were the first with air suspension, and anything new can be a questionable investment!
As it happens, they may have been right because there were a good deal of problems with the first air bags (I can attest to that fact with the 100's at Green Line). Additionally, both passengers and drivers complained of 'nausea' which is why I believe that that group of buses was sold off prematurely!
I can't answer for the 5105's, but I can tell you that most of the NY PBL orders for 5104's were in the narrow width (96") and were considered rare because GM only made 167 of them altogether!
I don't know as there were any 5105's in the narrow gauge.
As far as Green Line's ten 1959 5106's (151 to 160) go, (which, incidentally, were sold off to Chicago area operators almost immediately!) I am uncertain as to whether they were 96" or 102"'s wide.
Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet" |
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foto_buff
Age: 79
Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Name That PBL (Part 2) |
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| Q65A wrote: | The GM TDH-5105 was the best selling Old Look coach of all time (3631 units built from 1953-1959), yet curiously enough, NYC bus operators never bought any of them new. (The TDH-4512 sold 3515 units, and was the best selling 35' Old Look; NYC bus operators also shunned it.)
Question: Which 2 PBL's ran used 5105's in passenger service? |
No new fleets of 5105s were built for NY or NJ operators because 102-inch wide buses were illegal in both states at the time. NY began permitting the wider buses just as the NYCTA (who I was told was instrumental in obtaining that approval) was placing their first Fishbowl order, making the TDH-5301 the first "legal" 102-inch wide bus in NY. The earlier TDH-4510 fleet operated under a specially obtained regulatory exemption, as did the TDH-5101 fleet and FACC 2500 & 2501, as 40-foot long coaches were similarly prohibited until the early 1950s.
Used 5105s appeared in Queens Transit service (the 880 series) and a few of these ex-Detroit vehicles later served Avenue B & East Broadway in QTC paint and numbers. Westchester Street Transportation also put some ex-Detroit 5105s in service when they took over the Bronx-Stamford route of West Fordham Transportation.
As for the lack of acceptance of the 4512 by NYC operators, several factors affected fleet purchases in the 1950s. First and foremost was declining passenger traffic. Fifth Avenue Coach withdrew its last 55 "Queen Mary" doubledeckers and New York City Omnibus its last 40 or so Yellow 718s without replacements in 1953, then embarked on a program of rebuilding a combined fleet of 135 yellow 740s with updated front end sheet metal and slanted windshields, repowering gas engine buses with diesels, rather than purchase fleets of new buses. The decline continued into the new-look era, assisted in my opinion by the city's elimination of transfers on Fifth Avenue/Surface Transit in 1962, as a means of "saving" the 15-cent fare.
Next, in consideration of increasing operating costs, new bus purchases were almost exclusively 40-foot models: Green's 1954 TDH-4512 order was their last for 44/45 seat vehicles; Avenue B & East Broadway bought 10 41-seat Macks new in 1955/56 some pre-owned C-45-DTs (including some retired early by NYCTA), then 25 Flxible and GM new-looks before getting T8H-5308s in the 1970s; Steinway bought 20 TDH-4517s in 1960, then got on the 40-foot standard; and pre-merger Surface Transportation System got 15 each C-45-DT and C-47-DT, then bought 10 C-49-DT almost before the C-47s were delivered. Once Fifth Avenue came under local ownership and took over Surface Transit, their new purchases were exclusively 40-foot vehicles. The 40-foot coach represented increased productivity per vehicle and driver over its shorter sibling, and post-WWII and Korean war era inflation along with restrictive municipal regulation meant operators had to control costs.
Finally, the relatively young age of most area operators' fleets in the 1950s meant few orders from them in builders' ledgers. Surface Transportation put 500 new GM buses on the street in 14 months, between November, 1946 and January, 1948, then followed that up with 210 Macks delivered by 1949 (The 115 C-45-DTs STS bought for Yonkers service then returned to Mack wound up in Manhattan anyway, in NYCBoT/NYCTA service, replacing prewar Macks run by Comprehensive and East Side). From 1950-56, STS needed just 219 new buses to complete the replacement of over 300 prewar Macks, Twins and Yellows. Of the 340 buses in the Fifth Avenue fleet in 1953, only 26 were prewar (and slated for rebuilding), while 697 of NYCO's 906-bus fleet were built between 1946-51, with 109 more in the rebuild program that would begin that year.
Only the NYCTA, newly created in 1953 as successor to the Board of Transportation, would make large fleet purchases in that era. No doubt, the TA's bus operations management was heavy with old-timers who went back to the pre-1940 Brooklyn Bus Company way of doing things. Back then, technology advanced so fast that 1930's Twin 40 fleet could economically be replaced in 1939-40, encouraging the Brooklyn Bus operation's relatively lax maintenance standards, which continued through the BoT and into the early TA era. Easy availability of capital funds for fleet modernization when the City took over made possible replacement of a 6-year old fleet of 300 Twin 40-G diesel-electric vehicles that bore the brunt of wartime traffic. All prewar and wartime BoT buses were replaced by the end of 1948. Poor parts support for prewar Twin Coaches no doubt played a part in their replacement, but cannot explain the withdrawal of 8-year old Whites in 1955 and 8- to 9-year old gas engine Macks in 1956, while other operators successfully repowered identical buses with diesel engines. It's true that the TA had a relatively poor-performing postwar Twin Coach fleet of BoT and North Shore origin, but the 356 postwar gas-engined Twins represented less than 20 per cent of the TA fleet. Many became surplus as traffic declined in the 1950s, and most had significant rust damage when retired by the age of eight, but aluminum Mack C-45-DT and GM TDH-4507s built in 1947-48 with plenty of available service life were replaced by C-49-DT and TDH-5106 fleets between 1956-58 (Many of these early retirees went on to serve new owners, many in the NYC metropolitan area).
In short, without the TA's purchases, New York would have had precious few air-ride GM and Mack old-look buses on its streets. Nonetheless, the new fleets were primarily 40-foot vehicles.
Thanks and best regards,
Vince |
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Q65A
Age: 66
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 1768
Location: Central NJ
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Vince, you are absolutely correct: Queens Transit and Avenue B & E. B'way both operated second-hand, ex-Detroit Street Railways TDH-5105's, acquired from Hausman Bus Sales.
Your detailed response is terrific; thanks very much and welcome to BT3!!!
I think you're going to enjoy the ride!  |
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: 'The Big 6" Deal! |
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With 'foto buff' on the scene it looks as though Mr. Linsky can retire or at least take a back seat!
Excellent presentation Vince - keep up the good work!
I have often wondered why a mere six inches could be so meaningful - take a ruler and look at six inches - it's virtually nothing - you can expand the average hand wider then six inches and yet, that width played such an important role in the history of transit buses.
Aside from the phenominal additional costs to manufacturer's to fabricate different roof sizes and other essential parts, all it really did was make the aisles of buses a bit more comfortable for standees, and perhaps raise that capacity slightly! Certainly not enough reason for the effort!
It would seem to me that GM alone with its powerful lobbying sway years ago could have easily convinced the Interstate Commerce Commission and whatever other political subdivisions that had purview in the matter, to adopt a 'standard' width for transit buses (perhaps 99" as a compromise).
Whatever - I'm sure that the other historians in this group will give me a thousand reasons why this didn't happen!
I will say this; when I drove for Green Line in the days of yore I experienced a number of 'sticky' situations in which I was thankful that the bus I was driving was a 96" job.
Case in point; both the Q10 and Q37 travelled up 80th. Road from Queens Boulevard to Austin Street in Kew Gardens (the 10 turned left at Austin and the 37 continued on to Park Lane South).
It was in the days before alternate side parking and this one narrow stretch was wall to wall cars on both sides day and night.
Invariably, there were double parkers and, while I never hit one (honestly), I have to tell you that paint dripped more than once - that's how close those passes were!
There's where another 6" would have really meant trouble!
Mr. Linsky
"The Green Hornet"
Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica & Arverne, New York |
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