BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

All:

I just recently learned that GREYHOUND, at one point, converted some 130 PD-4501 "SCENICRUISER" coaches into passenger-cargo units, much like TRAILWAYS did in later years with some of its EAGLE fleet.

I am guessing that this took place during the twilight years of the SCENICRUISER, and, if this is true, am wondering also at the profibility of such conversions, when the coaches were not going to be operating for the company for that much longer.

Did GL ever toy with this idea again, after these reconfigured coaches were retired?

I know that GL still offers Package Express, but, AFAIK, no longer operates specially configured buses for this service.

Appreciate any further info......

Thanks,

John

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Note this retired "SCENICRUISER" (obviously converted over to a motor home) has the rear window sets blanked off.

Could this coach have been one of those converted by GREYHOUND into a passenger-cargo unit?

If this is not the case here, are any such coaches known to survive?

http://www.scenicruiser.com/images/redden/4501.jpg

[Mr. Linsky]

NYO,

It is very possible that the attachment might have originally been one of the Greyhound conversions you speak of.

Anyway, if it isn't, it's still an interesting re-use of a 4501!

Enjoy,

Mr. 'L'

[HwyHaulier]

John -

To document it, there's a need for photos of the passenger side on the "conversion" coaches. Seems to me there was a small
door, fitted in at time of re-work. It was on the extreme passenger side, in rearmost position.

Recall, fairly shortly after new deliveries, the bloom was rather quickly off that particular custom rose. It came down to endless
bickering between G M C and GREYHOUND. To the point we know how all that turned out, with G L control of M C I.

Also, a "corporate culture" in G L wherein many more than willing to run any equipment out to forever. Yes, the IRS Depreciation
Schedule would note much of the rolling stock went to well past "zero" or salvage value. It might be helpful should I scratch
around to try to estimate what the accounting, useful life for new units. Nevertheless, some G L Shops would rebuild equipment
until they were told not to! (It was a "Western States" thing!)

In a related Accounting note. Assume a major, general overhaul and rebuild. Under Tax Code, usually considered a "betterment".
And, so that amount "starts the clock" on a new Depreciation Schedule. Good to know at arrival of Tax Season? <G>

........................Vern...................

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L"/Vern.......

Appreciate both your time and your input!

Mr "L":

To say that is a photo of a VERY unorthodox SCENICRUISER is indeed an understatement!! Thanks for sharing this!

Vern:

As always, greatly appreciate "sage words of wisdom" from one with much knowledge on the bus front!

I could never fully understand why the PD-4501's had such a brief production span; the 4104's were in production for four years before they were discontinued.

Like the classic VW "Beetle", which remained virtually unchanged on the outside for decades, I've long felt that the same could have held true for the 4501.

Internal improvements and refinements, but, basically, the same sleek, modern, instantly recognizeable- coach on the outside.

Though the "BUFFALO" was a smaller, two-axle coach, it is quite clear where the inspiration for this series came from.

At TRAILWAYS, the famed EAGLE remained THE "trademark" "Big Red" coach through the decades, with some changes and modifications through the years.

If only the same had held true for the PD-4501.......

John

[Mr. Linsky]

NYO,

I'm sure that there were a myriad of reasons as to why GM cut the life of the 4501 short - not the least of which being the whole embarrassing episode with the failed 'twin engine' design that turned their 'largest' customer (Greyhound) against them.

But I really think that it didn't all go for naught because out of the chaos came the two best buses ever built and, of course, I'm talking about the 4104 and the 4106 (imitated, but never duplicated!).

GM will be remembered far longer for those two successes then for their one failure.

Regards,

Mr. 'L'

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Mr. "L":

Again, thank you for your input!

The 4104 and 4106?

Indeed, truly "unsung heroes" of the postwar intercity coach era!

The 4106, clearly, was a more "angular" version of the 4104; body curves were out of style by the 60's, ikn the bus industry.

Back in the early NJT era, I was able to ride both 4104's (ex-O&B) and 4106's (ex-INTER-CITY) on the ex-O&B "RIVER ROAD EXPRESS" occassionly......ALWAYS a treat!

Likewise, I was ALWAYS more than happy to be heading home aboard an ex-PSNJ "Buffalo"!!

Man, what variety was still with us, at such a late date!!

So danged tired of all of this bland, insipid, generic, cookie-cutter stuff......

John

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

See:

http://www.billvons.com/bus/buspage50.htm

http://www.billvons.com/bus/buspage60.htm

http://www..ask.com/wiki/PD-4501_Scenicruiser

http://www.ask.com/wiki/GM_Buffalo_bus

[HwyHaulier]

John - CC: Mr 'L' - All -

IMHO Bulletin: The Achilles Heel of the SCENICRUISER being it was not 100%, G M C - T & C All The Way!
It had the external meddling by others. The design was practically preordained as a limited product.

In a way, it should have signaled that later dabbling with the RTS could only lead to disaster. One may
infer that G M C - T & C didn't "play well with others" on bus building principles. In retrospect, it was
rather cheeky for others to tell the firm how to build equipment!

......................Vern.......................

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Just a little something for "added interest".....

http://www.scenicruiser.com/tech.htm

http://www.scenicruiser.com/images/redden/agl4501b.jpg

[roymanning2000]

The conversion of the group of Scenics into combos started around 1969. By that time, the Scenicruisers were hitting the 15-year mark and replacements, in the form of the MC-7, were beginning to bump them from their long-distance duties.

It doesn't look like the conversion was all that difficult or expensive. The roll-up door on the curb side at the rear of the upper deck and a bulkhead separating the remaining passenger part of the bus from the freight were about it.

Package express was a big part of Greyhound revenue in those days. With their huge underfloor bays and using part of the upper deck for even more space, the combos were just the ticket for high volume routes. The only way you could move the same number of packages would have been to run a second section.

I rode several Scenic combos in the midwest in the early 70's. These were on low passenger volume night runs where a 24-30 passenger capacity was enough. It was interesting to watch the amount of freight that could be loaded on one of these buses.

Interestingly, in the mid-70's, some of the Scenic combo's were replaced by early MC-7's also rebuilt in similar fashion. The MC-7' conversion was a bit more involved as some or all of them utilized the tandem axle set-up from retired Scenicruisers.

Roy

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Roy.......

Greatly appreciate this most interesting trivia!

"low passenger volume night runs".....this brings back memories of the "mail-express" trains ("milk runs") that were still in operation through the 1960's on a number of railroads.

Heavy on the mail and express, and EXTREMELY light on passengers!

Easily, a dozen or more "head end" cars in the consist, with but a single passenger coach trailing!

IMHO, I think both GREYHOUND and TRAILWAYS were both astute in thier operations of passenger/cargo combos.......certainly was a good way to add a little extra revenue.

In all my years of being in the bus hobby, I have never seen even one photo of a GREYHOUND 4501 passenger-combo unit.

On the other hand, I've seen a number of photos of thier EAGLE brethern, over at "Big Red".......

John

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

See;

http://www.coachinfo.com/AllAboutBuses/Eagle_Info.html

http://www.silvereaglebus.com/eaglehistory3.htm

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Truly, a labor of love......

http://www.walkercustomer.com/scenicruiser.html

[timecruncher]

I might add that the love affair between GM and Greyhound was stressed after it was discovered that the "original equipment" powerplant in the PD4501, which was two 4-71 Detroit Diesels hooked up in some kind of tandem arrangement, was kinda self-destructive.

I recall the original Scenicruisers and how they sounded (I was really into the throaty roar from Louisville's TDH5103's and liked the powerful sound of the original Scenics). Anyway, the ultimate solution from GM or Greyhound -- don't know who -- was retrofitting with one 8V-71 Detroit engines in place of the two 4-71 engines.

For you old-timers out there, the 4-71 was common in TDH3610, 3612 and 3614 models, and had somewhere between no power and just barely enough to move the bus down the road!

Anyway, the hundreds of PD4501 units in the Greyhound fleet had to all be retrofitted at great cost. Someone on this forum probably knows more than I about whether the bus line or GM paid for those costly engine swaps.

Moving forward, Greyhound purchased a lot of PD4507 35-foot "buffalo" models in the late sixties, and those nice-looking and nice-running buses were plagued with structural issues similar to those experienced on transit properties with late-sixties transit buses from GM. Another problem encountered with the buffalos was a troublesome transmission linkage that was prone to hanging up on itself. The old-timers could drive them without problem, but the newbies struggled.

This rookie drove a PD4905 (the 40-foot version that came out later) once with an air throttle and 4-speed Spicer transmission and practically lost my soul trying to shift it without grinding the gears!

The 4507 debacle was the final straw and GM went over to MCI for model 5's, 7's, 8's, 9's and everything since with the exception of those Prevosts purchased for east coast service a couple of years ago.

The 4507's would move, too. When I was attending Western Kentucky University 1968-1972 I would generally ride L&N's Pan American north on Friday afternoons and Greyhound back on Sunday evening. Going up Muldraugh Hill on I-65 - then the Kentucky Turnpike - the big Scenics would bog down and invariably have to upshift to 3rd to make it up the four mile upgrade. The 4507's would march right up the hill with a full load at 70mph!

Here's one leaving the old Louisville terminal at 5th & Broadway on an afternoon run to somewhere (not Louisville):



By this time the big MC-7's were showing up on the Chicago - Florida express runs, too:



Wow. Has it been that many years since Greyhound was still a real bus line?

timecruncher